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I really don't understand how they can be viewed as anything but crutches. 1. What happens when there is unexpected construction or an accident? The geofence

I really don't understand how they can be viewed as anything but crutches. 1. What happens when there is unexpected construction or an accident? The geofence isn't going to be updated fast enough. Same-day updates are considered extremely fast in the mapping world. 2. What happens when there is rain or snow? LIDAR becomes useless, so the system can't be used in rain or snow. If you want an all-weather self driving car, you can't depend on LIDAR. Edit: Humble request. Instead of just downvoting (I don't mind the downvotes), why don't you write a comment to tell me why this is wrong?

bpodgursky 6y ago
At the end of the day.. WE can drive with only vision, in unfamiliar terrain, so it's a bit silly to suggest that LIDAR etc and geofencing strict requirements for full self-driving.
- derekp7 6y ago
  However, WE can't drive when looking directly into a setting sun. So we have sunglasses and sun visors to help. Is wearing sunglasses a crutch when driving?
- DennisP 6y ago
  True, but the human brain is vastly more powerful than any self-driving computer hardware.
fancyfredbot 6y ago
A safety feature which improves safety in some but not all cases is a crutch? It doesn't seem a very strong argument.
- labcomputer 6y ago
  Can you expand on that? I'm having trouble understanding what you're arguing here: Is "self driving" the safety feature?
  - FireBeyond 6y ago
    Your argument seems to be along the lines of "an improvement that is not a panacea is to be dismissed as not worthy". "Oh, that works and help in conditions a, b, and c, but not as much in x, y, and z, therefore it's not any improvement".
1234letshaveatw 6y ago
#2 seems like an argument in bad faith. Nobody is suggesting that LIDAR is the "only" solution, just that it can/should be part of the solution- augmentation. Similar to airbags- You can't only depend on them, but nobody does. That is why cars still have seatbelts
- labcomputer 6y ago
  > Nobody is suggesting that LIDAR is the "only" solution, [...] Sure, that's an fun slight-of-hand. But plenty of people are arguing that vision-only (or vision + RADAR) systems cannot possibly work, and that you must have LIDAR in addition to vision to do self-driving. If you must have LIDAR, then you can't make an all-weather system that has the same performance in good weather and bad. It also seems odd that you would accept degraded performance during driving conditions which are especially challenging... It's like saying that you'd turn off your airbag in the rain because you still have seat belts. If anything, I would think most people would want better performance during bad driving conditions.
gamblor956 6y ago
That's not how the geo-fence works. If the car solely used geo-fence it wouldn't be able to handle simple things like other cars on the road. Obviously, that's not the case. Geo-fence lets the car know that the road has been mapped so that it can correlate its sensory data against fixed data. Rain reduces the operational distance of a LIDAR system but does not render the system useless. On the other hand, tests have shown that more than moderate amounts of rain (i.e,. more than a sprinkle) will render a camera-based system useless at both recognizing objects and at determining distances. https://ouster.com/blog/lidar-vs-camera-comparison-in-the-rain/ https://ouster.com/blog/lidar-vs-camera-comparison-in-the-ra... (Most car manufacturers have already stated they will not let their advanced driving functions work in snow for safety reasons.)
- labcomputer 6y ago
  > Geo-fence lets the car know that the road has been mapped so that it can correlate its sensory data against fixed data. Yes, I get that, and my point is that updating the geo-fence fast enough to account for changes in the ground truth which invalidate your map is an unsolved problem.
  - gamblor956 6y ago
    No, you're not getting it. Geo-fence is the backstop safety mechanism for SuperCruise, not the primary mechanism. They don't need to update geo-fence to account for changes to "ground truth." The whole point of the geo-fence is to confirm sensor data and assist in identifying anamolous situations like accidents and construction. If sensor data doesn't match "truth" then the self-driving system can engage safety mechanisms, engage additional processing, or disable self-driving as appropriate.

bpodgursky 6y ago

At the end of the day.. WE can drive with only vision, in unfamiliar terrain, so it's a bit silly to suggest that LIDAR etc and geofencing strict requirements for full self-driving.

derekp7 6y ago
However, WE can't drive when looking directly into a setting sun. So we have sunglasses and sun visors to help. Is wearing sunglasses a crutch when driving?
DennisP 6y ago
True, but the human brain is vastly more powerful than any self-driving computer hardware.

fancyfredbot 6y ago

A safety feature which improves safety in some but not all cases is a crutch? It doesn't seem a very strong argument.

labcomputer 6y ago
Can you expand on that? I'm having trouble understanding what you're arguing here: Is "self driving" the safety feature?
- FireBeyond 6y ago
  Your argument seems to be along the lines of "an improvement that is not a panacea is to be dismissed as not worthy". "Oh, that works and help in conditions a, b, and c, but not as much in x, y, and z, therefore it's not any improvement".

1234letshaveatw 6y ago

#2 seems like an argument in bad faith. Nobody is suggesting that LIDAR is the "only" solution, just that it can/should be part of the solution- augmentation. Similar to airbags- You can't only depend on them, but nobody does. That is why cars still have seatbelts

labcomputer 6y ago
> Nobody is suggesting that LIDAR is the "only" solution, [...] Sure, that's an fun slight-of-hand. But plenty of people are arguing that vision-only (or vision + RADAR) systems cannot possibly work, and that you must have LIDAR in addition to vision to do self-driving. If you must have LIDAR, then you can't make an all-weather system that has the same performance in good weather and bad. It also seems odd that you would accept degraded performance during driving conditions which are especially challenging... It's like saying that you'd turn off your airbag in the rain because you still have seat belts. If anything, I would think most people would want better performance during bad driving conditions.

gamblor956 6y ago

That's not how the geo-fence works. If the car solely used geo-fence it wouldn't be able to handle simple things like other cars on the road. Obviously, that's not the case. Geo-fence lets the car know that the road has been mapped so that it can correlate its sensory data against fixed data. Rain reduces the operational distance of a LIDAR system but does not render the system useless. On the other hand, tests have shown that more than moderate amounts of rain (i.e,. more than a sprinkle) will render a camera-based system useless at both recognizing objects and at determining distances. https://ouster.com/blog/lidar-vs-camera-comparison-in-the-rain/ https://ouster.com/blog/lidar-vs-camera-comparison-in-the-ra... (Most car manufacturers have already stated they will not let their advanced driving functions work in snow for safety reasons.)

labcomputer 6y ago
> Geo-fence lets the car know that the road has been mapped so that it can correlate its sensory data against fixed data. Yes, I get that, and my point is that updating the geo-fence fast enough to account for changes in the ground truth which invalidate your map is an unsolved problem.
- gamblor956 6y ago
  No, you're not getting it. Geo-fence is the backstop safety mechanism for SuperCruise, not the primary mechanism. They don't need to update geo-fence to account for changes to "ground truth." The whole point of the geo-fence is to confirm sensor data and assist in identifying anamolous situations like accidents and construction. If sensor data doesn't match "truth" then the self-driving system can engage safety mechanisms, engage additional processing, or disable self-driving as appropriate.