4 ms·

> It's not that It IS that, money wise, in all the places where even the best employed developer does not even make close to 100k, e.g. all of Europe. Which is

> It's not that It IS that, money wise, in all the places where even the best employed developer does not even make close to 100k, e.g. all of Europe. Which is why a lot of managers in IT suck. They are previous developers that reached the developer salary ceiling. Then you can only become architect or some kind of manager.

frede 6y ago
Switzerland a notable exception.
Jaruzel 6y ago
Building on from that, a lot of large organisations have no progression for developers that isn't up the management ladder. I got sucked into this - realising I wanted more money, so got promoted into the management track (as that was the only route), and hated it. I soon quit the org and went freelance, where I could close the salary gap, yet still remain hands on technical.
- bfdbfdb 6y ago
  How did you do that? I am in the same boat, got into tech lead position for more money. As a tech lead, I have 0 power and a lot more responsibilities. Hate it. I tried to go back to dev position but management kept blocking it. So I have been practicing leet code and hoping to go to one of FAANGs. But maybe freelancing is a better route for me. Only thing is that whenever I look up freelancing rates, they are quite low compared to my current average Texas SWE salary.
  - bradlys 6y ago
    I think a lot of these discussions are missing the locale that many people are living in. The amount of people who are contracting or freelancing and raking in FAANG money ($400k+) is likely a lot lower than people are being lead to believe. If you want FAANG money, just join FAANG.
    - arvinsim 6y ago
      I agree. Location is very important here. If one likes to work in Southeast Asia for example, it doesn't take FAANG money to enjoy living there.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - mgkimsal 6y ago
    > Only thing is that whenever I look up freelancing rates, they are quite low compared to my current average Texas SWE salary. "looking up freelancing rates" is almost ... impossible? Most places I see that offer that are self-reported numbers, and I don't know who's self-reporting. Freelance is going to be largely what you make of it, but there's definitely a 'sales' aspect to it, at least periodically. You need to connect with prospects, demonstrate ability, set up a deal, get paid, do the work, get more paid, etc. It's not impossible, but definitely takes a bit more work for many folks. Word-of-mouth referrals helps remove some of those steps. Finding another agency to work for/under can help too - they can handle some of the 'finding work', and maybe even billing, but they're going to take their cut. May or may not be worth it - you can definitely get more flexibility, but that's not everyone's primary goal. And... with the pandemic, most people are remote working now anyway, and have some more flexibility than they had a year ago, so there's a bit less obvious win there as a comparison point.
axetheone 6y ago
Agreed, equivalent compensation between IC and management might be a common thing in USA but it certainly is not in Europe.
arkadiytehgraet 6y ago
All of Europe seems to be quite a stretch. I am earning north of 100k euro as IC in the Netherlands, most of my peers are doing the same here. I also know quite a few people in Ireland, Germany and Sweden doing better than me.
- exceptione 6y ago
  In NL? What roles do you and your peers have?
  - arkadiytehgraet 6y ago
    I am a regular/core developer, others are either core or seniors.
    - Traubenfuchs 6y ago
      Are you working at a special place like Google? A quick Google search lets one think 100k is absolutely exceptional in NL.
      - arkadiytehgraet 6y ago
        No, not Google or other FAANMG company. That's the problem with quick Google searches and not living and exploring job market in the given country. I agree that there are truly a lot of developer jobs in NL paying in 40-70k range. However, there is non-exceptional number of jobs paying above that. I won't name the company I am working for, I will just outline industries which offer 80-120k+ here in NL: obviously, FAANMG; financial institutions; hospitality; healthcare. And most probably a number of others that I am not aware about. Also there is quite a discrepancy in pay among companies even in the same domain, so generalizing is difficult. E.g. I used to work in TomTom and I know the pay there is in 40-70k range. However, I cannot say that it will be the same for e.g. Phillips.

frede 6y ago

Switzerland a notable exception.

Jaruzel 6y ago

Building on from that, a lot of large organisations have no progression for developers that isn't up the management ladder. I got sucked into this - realising I wanted more money, so got promoted into the management track (as that was the only route), and hated it. I soon quit the org and went freelance, where I could close the salary gap, yet still remain hands on technical.

bfdbfdb 6y ago
How did you do that? I am in the same boat, got into tech lead position for more money. As a tech lead, I have 0 power and a lot more responsibilities. Hate it. I tried to go back to dev position but management kept blocking it. So I have been practicing leet code and hoping to go to one of FAANGs. But maybe freelancing is a better route for me. Only thing is that whenever I look up freelancing rates, they are quite low compared to my current average Texas SWE salary.
- bradlys 6y ago
  I think a lot of these discussions are missing the locale that many people are living in. The amount of people who are contracting or freelancing and raking in FAANG money ($400k+) is likely a lot lower than people are being lead to believe. If you want FAANG money, just join FAANG.
  - arvinsim 6y ago
    I agree. Location is very important here. If one likes to work in Southeast Asia for example, it doesn't take FAANG money to enjoy living there.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- mgkimsal 6y ago
  > Only thing is that whenever I look up freelancing rates, they are quite low compared to my current average Texas SWE salary. "looking up freelancing rates" is almost ... impossible? Most places I see that offer that are self-reported numbers, and I don't know who's self-reporting. Freelance is going to be largely what you make of it, but there's definitely a 'sales' aspect to it, at least periodically. You need to connect with prospects, demonstrate ability, set up a deal, get paid, do the work, get more paid, etc. It's not impossible, but definitely takes a bit more work for many folks. Word-of-mouth referrals helps remove some of those steps. Finding another agency to work for/under can help too - they can handle some of the 'finding work', and maybe even billing, but they're going to take their cut. May or may not be worth it - you can definitely get more flexibility, but that's not everyone's primary goal. And... with the pandemic, most people are remote working now anyway, and have some more flexibility than they had a year ago, so there's a bit less obvious win there as a comparison point.

axetheone 6y ago

Agreed, equivalent compensation between IC and management might be a common thing in USA but it certainly is not in Europe.

arkadiytehgraet 6y ago

All of Europe seems to be quite a stretch. I am earning north of 100k euro as IC in the Netherlands, most of my peers are doing the same here. I also know quite a few people in Ireland, Germany and Sweden doing better than me.

exceptione 6y ago
In NL? What roles do you and your peers have?
- arkadiytehgraet 6y ago
  I am a regular/core developer, others are either core or seniors.
  - Traubenfuchs 6y ago
    Are you working at a special place like Google? A quick Google search lets one think 100k is absolutely exceptional in NL.
    - arkadiytehgraet 6y ago
      No, not Google or other FAANMG company. That's the problem with quick Google searches and not living and exploring job market in the given country. I agree that there are truly a lot of developer jobs in NL paying in 40-70k range. However, there is non-exceptional number of jobs paying above that. I won't name the company I am working for, I will just outline industries which offer 80-120k+ here in NL: obviously, FAANMG; financial institutions; hospitality; healthcare. And most probably a number of others that I am not aware about. Also there is quite a discrepancy in pay among companies even in the same domain, so generalizing is difficult. E.g. I used to work in TomTom and I know the pay there is in 40-70k range. However, I cannot say that it will be the same for e.g. Phillips.