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Why would I want to give up my various credit/debit cards and use a single app? I would be giving a single app all the payment power. This works well in a highl

by wil421 6y ago

Why would I want to give up my various credit/debit cards and use a single app? I would be giving a single app all the payment power. This works well in a highly regulated Government controlled market. The EU and US allow anyone to compete. China does not. A better and more realistic solution in the US is the personal bank to bank transfers people can easily do in the UK/EU.

dmurray 6y ago
There are two major credit card networks and essentially 0 new entrants in that space. Your "various credit/debit cards" are most likely with the same two networks, linked to different bank accounts, just as they could be with Alipay. They just have different branding. Two is a lot more than one, for competition purposes, but it's hardly a wide open market where "anyone can compete", and it's the same as the number of major consumer payment networks in China (Alipay and Wechat pay).
- wil421 6y ago
  There are actually 4. Visa, MasterCard, Amex, and Discover. Yes and I make about $1500-$2000 in cash back a year using my various branded credit cards. How can you do that with Alipay? Does Alipay offer theft protection, travel insurance, or price protection for buyers? My Amex and Chase cards do. What about disputes and fraud on Alipay?
  - Spearchucker 6y ago
    Are these cashbacks truly gifted to you though, or is the price of another product or service from the provider simply adjusted to compensate? Like Black Friday discounts, where product prices are raised so that the "discount" only drives sales volume, rather than offer a truly marked-down/discounted price to the consumer.
    - mdorazio 6y ago
      It’s even worse. A significant portion of cash back/rewards are financed from fees and interest payments charged to other credit card holders. So in effect, you’re getting money from poorer and/or less responsible people who carry balances and use their cards to get cash advances.
      - jjoonathan 6y ago
        What? No. Cash back is a cut of the fees the CC company charges to the merchant.
        toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Where do you think those fees come from? You! Rebates are your own money you have to optimize to get back, and those who are less well off are usually the ones who are disproportionally impacted by the aggregate costs of reward cards (because they're paying with cash, debit cards, or other mechanisms where they don't receive a rebate). Rewards for payments and unregulated interchange fees need to die. They are a financial transaction tax on everyone.
        jjoonathan 6y ago
        Yes, exactly. "Your reward points come from interest charged to poor people" is both gross (in that some people are placated by it) and incorrect.
        disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        Which are paid for by increasing prices for cash buyers. It's just another regressive tax on poor Americans, sadly.
        paulryanrogers 6y ago
        Merchants pass these fees on as higher prices. No such thing as a free lunch. (Rewards cards similarly offer insignificant benefits or are paid for by increases elsewhere.)
        6y ago
    - ozi 6y ago
      Aside from the cost of the cards themselves, the rewards are free so long as you don't carry a balance. If you pay your balance off each month, these cards are great. I enjoy thousands/year in benefits after fees.
    - wil421 6y ago
      6% back on groceries with a $6,000 cap for the Amex, $95 fee, cap met in July, gas is 3% back. Chase visa has 5% back on groceries with a 12k cap, no fee. Bank of America visa has 3% back online orders, no fee. Delta Amex with 100,000+ miles is used for automated bills, $95 fee. Pre-covid I made back the $95 fee by saving on checked bags etc. Will be cancelled in January due to covid.
      - jdeibele 6y ago
        I have United-branded Visa. I was going to cancel it but the rep said that I could pay the annual fee of $95 with miles. I have it to avoid paying bag fees. Haven't traveled with United for more than a year. I guess I'll keep it until the miles run out. I don't know if you can do the same with your Delta Amex but FYI.
  - mbesto 6y ago
    > Yes and I make about $1500-$2000 in cash back a year using my various branded credit cards. How can you do that with Alipay? Which are essentially funded through merchant fees. CC's will gladly give you $2k in cash back for all of the fees that it charges merchants. If those fees didn't exist, your overall cost of goods would likely be ~3% cheaper. Looks like Alipay has disputes and fraud: https://intl.alipay.com/ihome/user/protect/memberProtect.htm https://intl.alipay.com/ihome/user/protect/memberProtect.htm
  - z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
    Your rewards program is the reason for the fees in the first place, gtfo
- jlokier 6y ago
  In practice, it doesn't work like that. There are two major networks, but many vendors of credit cards, with very difficult qualities from each other. If you have any problems, it's the vendors you will deal with and who decide things like your credit limit, how often that's revised (up or down), whether payments are blocked and how to unblock them, how you are notified about transactions, whether paying off the card turns into credit instantly or takes a few days, your interest rates, whether the interest is applied immediately or not, whether you have balance transfer and money transfer, whether you have 0% transfers, cashbacks and other deals, and the kind of customer service you get (whether it's on the phone or forced to be via chat, whether they answer quickly and are helpful or take forever and are not), and whether their website and app are down "for maintenance" regularly. Almost everything you'd care about is up to the vendor of which there are many, not the network.
markus_zhang 6y ago
Because it's a lot more convenient, for the customer to just carry their cell and scan a QR code to pay, and a lot more convenient and cheaper for a small seller to just print a paper showing a QR code. Yeah for sure there are security issues (e.g. thieves changing the QR code pic so the money goes into another account) but most people out there put more value in that convenience. Plus they are a lot cheaper than cc. Personal bank to bank transactions, at least in Canada, still involves a lot of trouble.

by wil421 6y ago

dmurray 6y ago

There are two major credit card networks and essentially 0 new entrants in that space. Your "various credit/debit cards" are most likely with the same two networks, linked to different bank accounts, just as they could be with Alipay. They just have different branding. Two is a lot more than one, for competition purposes, but it's hardly a wide open market where "anyone can compete", and it's the same as the number of major consumer payment networks in China (Alipay and Wechat pay).

wil421 6y ago
There are actually 4. Visa, MasterCard, Amex, and Discover. Yes and I make about $1500-$2000 in cash back a year using my various branded credit cards. How can you do that with Alipay? Does Alipay offer theft protection, travel insurance, or price protection for buyers? My Amex and Chase cards do. What about disputes and fraud on Alipay?
- Spearchucker 6y ago
  Are these cashbacks truly gifted to you though, or is the price of another product or service from the provider simply adjusted to compensate? Like Black Friday discounts, where product prices are raised so that the "discount" only drives sales volume, rather than offer a truly marked-down/discounted price to the consumer.
  - mdorazio 6y ago
    It’s even worse. A significant portion of cash back/rewards are financed from fees and interest payments charged to other credit card holders. So in effect, you’re getting money from poorer and/or less responsible people who carry balances and use their cards to get cash advances.
    - jjoonathan 6y ago
      What? No. Cash back is a cut of the fees the CC company charges to the merchant.
      - toomuchtodo 6y ago
        Where do you think those fees come from? You! Rebates are your own money you have to optimize to get back, and those who are less well off are usually the ones who are disproportionally impacted by the aggregate costs of reward cards (because they're paying with cash, debit cards, or other mechanisms where they don't receive a rebate). Rewards for payments and unregulated interchange fees need to die. They are a financial transaction tax on everyone.
        jjoonathan 6y ago
        Yes, exactly. "Your reward points come from interest charged to poor people" is both gross (in that some people are placated by it) and incorrect.
      - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
        Which are paid for by increasing prices for cash buyers. It's just another regressive tax on poor Americans, sadly.
      - paulryanrogers 6y ago
        Merchants pass these fees on as higher prices. No such thing as a free lunch. (Rewards cards similarly offer insignificant benefits or are paid for by increases elsewhere.)
      - 6y ago
  - ozi 6y ago
    Aside from the cost of the cards themselves, the rewards are free so long as you don't carry a balance. If you pay your balance off each month, these cards are great. I enjoy thousands/year in benefits after fees.
  - wil421 6y ago
    6% back on groceries with a $6,000 cap for the Amex, $95 fee, cap met in July, gas is 3% back. Chase visa has 5% back on groceries with a 12k cap, no fee. Bank of America visa has 3% back online orders, no fee. Delta Amex with 100,000+ miles is used for automated bills, $95 fee. Pre-covid I made back the $95 fee by saving on checked bags etc. Will be cancelled in January due to covid.
    - jdeibele 6y ago
      I have United-branded Visa. I was going to cancel it but the rep said that I could pay the annual fee of $95 with miles. I have it to avoid paying bag fees. Haven't traveled with United for more than a year. I guess I'll keep it until the miles run out. I don't know if you can do the same with your Delta Amex but FYI.
- mbesto 6y ago
  > Yes and I make about $1500-$2000 in cash back a year using my various branded credit cards. How can you do that with Alipay? Which are essentially funded through merchant fees. CC's will gladly give you $2k in cash back for all of the fees that it charges merchants. If those fees didn't exist, your overall cost of goods would likely be ~3% cheaper. Looks like Alipay has disputes and fraud: https://intl.alipay.com/ihome/user/protect/memberProtect.htm https://intl.alipay.com/ihome/user/protect/memberProtect.htm
- z3ncyberpunk 6y ago
  Your rewards program is the reason for the fees in the first place, gtfo
jlokier 6y ago
In practice, it doesn't work like that. There are two major networks, but many vendors of credit cards, with very difficult qualities from each other. If you have any problems, it's the vendors you will deal with and who decide things like your credit limit, how often that's revised (up or down), whether payments are blocked and how to unblock them, how you are notified about transactions, whether paying off the card turns into credit instantly or takes a few days, your interest rates, whether the interest is applied immediately or not, whether you have balance transfer and money transfer, whether you have 0% transfers, cashbacks and other deals, and the kind of customer service you get (whether it's on the phone or forced to be via chat, whether they answer quickly and are helpful or take forever and are not), and whether their website and app are down "for maintenance" regularly. Almost everything you'd care about is up to the vendor of which there are many, not the network.

markus_zhang 6y ago

Because it's a lot more convenient, for the customer to just carry their cell and scan a QR code to pay, and a lot more convenient and cheaper for a small seller to just print a paper showing a QR code. Yeah for sure there are security issues (e.g. thieves changing the QR code pic so the money goes into another account) but most people out there put more value in that convenience. Plus they are a lot cheaper than cc. Personal bank to bank transactions, at least in Canada, still involves a lot of trouble.