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Without expressing support or condemnation for the CCP, I think being 'bored and numb' is a poor justification for disregarding concerns about potential bad act

Without expressing support or condemnation for the CCP, I think being 'bored and numb' is a poor justification for disregarding concerns about potential bad actors. Sets bad precedent for engaging with sources who can intentionally pollute information streams.

FooBarWidget 6y ago
The problem isn't so much overlooking CCP's problems, it's that the CCP boogeyman becomes an excuse for overreactions. Everything remotely related to Chinese becomes under attack "because CCP bad". Imagine a world in which every article that mentions any American company, receives a torrent of comments calling for the banning of that company, because "US government bad". And then, when one says that the company in question isn't a state company, commenters simply say "but they pay US taxes/have to follow US national security law/are monitored by PRISM, so they're effectively a mouthpiece of the US govt". If the above scenario happens, I can very well imagine many Americans getting pissed off at the unfair treatment, and becoming more nationalist in response. Actually, that is already happening in China: since COVID-19 many Chinese are absolutely dismayed at the international response, which they view as unfair and biased. Nationalism and support for the CCP is at an all-time high in China. To people who hate CCP it sure feels good to criticize and oppose everything remotely CCP-related (even private Chinese companies) at every turn. But my point is: you can't solve actual problems with this sort of attitude. Do you want to FEEL good, or DO good? I think more dialog and cooperation with China will do more to improve China, than by attacking CCP and Chinese companies at every turn, because the latter alienates Chinese people (already happening) and paradoxically make them more supportive of the CCP. If China and the west come together, the whole world wins. If they attack each other, everybody loses.
- ookblah 6y ago
  lol what? i'm sorry but this is IMO A really unrealistic and way too optimistic take. if you look at the trajectories there is no happy hand holding here at the end. both countries cooperate so much as to benefit each other for the time being, but make no mistake they are gunning to be and keep #1. it's not an overreaction to say that the CCP has been undermining other countries for decades to gain the upperhand. whether that's "justified" is up for debate, but they do what they can to advance their country. and we're already written off in ways like you mentioned when the US makes world news. the nationalism isn't just some reaction by their citizens to unfairness, it's 100% cultivated by their gov't on purpose.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    I think saying that "they are both gunning to be #1" and "undermining other countries" is more of a projection than reality. Yanis Varoufakis, former Minister of Finance of Greece, who has participated in the Belt and Road Initiative, makes it quite clear that China is "non-interventionist to the point where we can't imagine it": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJatdtv4jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJatdtv4jQ The current trajectory of sinophobia based on incorrect, overblown and unrealistic readings of CCP, indeed does not have a happy ending. That's why the trajectory should be changed. > the nationalism isn't just some reaction by their citizens to unfairness, it's 100% cultivated by their gov't on purpose. I'm sorry, try talking to large number of mainland Chinese people first, they'll disagree with you. Blaming everything on "but Chinese people are brainwashed" is just an attempt to deny reality. You have an extreme view of the CCP's brainwashing capabilities. If they're that good at brainwashing, they would have eradicated many more down-to-earth societal problems a long time ago, such as the societal disdain for vocational jobs. They've been trying to get rid of the social stigma of vocational schools for years now, in order to prevent the job market from being crowded out by too many university graduates, but they've only had limited success. Try watching some actual Chinese propaganda for a while. You'll see that it's very primitive, not very convincing, and frankly quite bad. I don't know why everybody keeps thinking they're brainwashing masters without even having looked at all the materials.
    - ookblah 6y ago
      I mean you're misrepresenting what I said. I'm not handwaving away what they say as brainwashing. I'm just saying that the gov't has an inordinate effect of influence on their population. I don't view propaganda as a gov't drone on the TV telling you what to do ala NK, but just like the US, it's this permeating effect in the media and culture. I don't think every Chinese person thinks exactly the same way. But if you just look at the effects, they have a way of stirring nationalism that we do not have. Trump tried so hard to do the "China Virus" thing and look where that got him. And it's disingenuous to suggest because they can't hand wave away social problems inside the country that they somehow have "weak" influence. It's not an all or nothing. I'm curious what you're readings are on things softer things like the NBA ban over the tweet, things like ban on Korea products over THAAD (less off an over-reaction, but still), arm twisting Chinese/Korean actors/stars to support their worldview (see BTS stuff going on), Blizzard, etc. I can point to l0s of other examples where it is indeed an "over-reaction" on their part. This isn't even scratching the surface of their harder initiatives like in Africa. The "trajectory changing" as you mention is basically the rest of the world submitting to how China sees the world. And to be honest, I don't think that's "unfair" or anything, it's what they do as a country in position of power. It's also a cultural thing, pride, etc. (my personal opinion on this as well). I'm ethnically Chinese so yeah, I understand the mindset to some extent.
- amelius 6y ago
  I think it would help if we consider US companies potentially equally bad. For example, a US bank has the potential to make a lot of money from our personal data, and should be treated with suspicion just like any foreign company in that position.
- jjoonathan 6y ago
  > Imagine a world in which every article that mentions any American company, receives a torrent of comments calling for I don't have to imagine it because that's how it is. Heaven forbid we also call out the CCP when they do something much worse! Can't have any of that rational self interest, either. When China has rational self interest it's smart, but when the USA has rational self interest it's hypocrisy. CCP apologetics are so lame.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    > I don't have to imagine it because that's how it is. I really don't know what world you live in. I don't see widespread criticism against US non-state companies BECAUSE of their involvement with the US. Even talks about privacy issues are mostly about how those companies could abuse the data, not about how the US govt could abuse that data. I don't see many people calling for the banning of US non-state companies. I don't see US students and researchers being ousted out of other countries for being potential spies, even though there's no proof. I don't see people, who have a US background but living in other countries for a long time, being taken to parliament to unconditionally condemn the US govt before they're trusted as normal citizen. > Heaven forbid we also call out the CCP when they do something much worse! Calling out the CCP, and blanket banning all Chinese companies, are not at all the same thing, or even on the same level.
    - jjoonathan 6y ago
      > I don't see widespread criticism against US non-state companies BECAUSE of their involvement with the US. I do. The NSA comes up all the damn time. As it should. > I don't see many people calling for the banning of US non-state companies. People don't call for it because they just do it. It's not controversial. It was half of China's strategy and it has worked out spectacularly well for them because the US turned the other cheek. > I don't see US students and researchers being ousted out of other countries for being potential spies, even though there's no proof. If there's no proof, it's really an economic thing, not a spy thing. I got kicked out of Cambridge because my prospective PhD advisor had chosen to fund me with a grant that, it turned out, was exclusive to EU citizens. Outside the US this sort of protectionism doesn't merely exist, it exists and isn't controversial. > Calling out the CCP, and blanket banning all Chinese companies, are not at all the same thing, or even on the same level. We do the former because it's right and the latter because it's in our rational self interest. Just like China.
- aww_dang 6y ago
  >Everything remotely related to Chinese becomes under attack "because CCP bad". Which is why it is reasonable to discern between the CCP and China. I don't see sinophobia in criticism of the CCP. The counter-argument you present is closer to the straw man you're criticizing. Jack Ma is a CCP member. The CCP has a centrally planned command and control economy. Major players cannot exist without the sanction of the CCP. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alibaba-jack-ma/alibabas-jack-ma-is-a-communist-party-member-china-state-paper-reveals-idUSKCN1NW073 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alibaba-jack-ma/alibabas-... Concerns about the CCP controlling a global payment infrastructure are not anti-China. Please stop conflating the two ideas.
  - FooBarWidget 6y ago
    A good point. But on the other hand, Jack Ma being a CCP member clearly doesn't mean that Ant is automatically a state-controlled company, as evidenced by this event: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24979327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24979327

FooBarWidget 6y ago

The problem isn't so much overlooking CCP's problems, it's that the CCP boogeyman becomes an excuse for overreactions. Everything remotely related to Chinese becomes under attack "because CCP bad". Imagine a world in which every article that mentions any American company, receives a torrent of comments calling for the banning of that company, because "US government bad". And then, when one says that the company in question isn't a state company, commenters simply say "but they pay US taxes/have to follow US national security law/are monitored by PRISM, so they're effectively a mouthpiece of the US govt". If the above scenario happens, I can very well imagine many Americans getting pissed off at the unfair treatment, and becoming more nationalist in response. Actually, that is already happening in China: since COVID-19 many Chinese are absolutely dismayed at the international response, which they view as unfair and biased. Nationalism and support for the CCP is at an all-time high in China. To people who hate CCP it sure feels good to criticize and oppose everything remotely CCP-related (even private Chinese companies) at every turn. But my point is: you can't solve actual problems with this sort of attitude. Do you want to FEEL good, or DO good? I think more dialog and cooperation with China will do more to improve China, than by attacking CCP and Chinese companies at every turn, because the latter alienates Chinese people (already happening) and paradoxically make them more supportive of the CCP. If China and the west come together, the whole world wins. If they attack each other, everybody loses.

ookblah 6y ago
lol what? i'm sorry but this is IMO A really unrealistic and way too optimistic take. if you look at the trajectories there is no happy hand holding here at the end. both countries cooperate so much as to benefit each other for the time being, but make no mistake they are gunning to be and keep #1. it's not an overreaction to say that the CCP has been undermining other countries for decades to gain the upperhand. whether that's "justified" is up for debate, but they do what they can to advance their country. and we're already written off in ways like you mentioned when the US makes world news. the nationalism isn't just some reaction by their citizens to unfairness, it's 100% cultivated by their gov't on purpose.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  I think saying that "they are both gunning to be #1" and "undermining other countries" is more of a projection than reality. Yanis Varoufakis, former Minister of Finance of Greece, who has participated in the Belt and Road Initiative, makes it quite clear that China is "non-interventionist to the point where we can't imagine it": https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJatdtv4jQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9tJatdtv4jQ The current trajectory of sinophobia based on incorrect, overblown and unrealistic readings of CCP, indeed does not have a happy ending. That's why the trajectory should be changed. > the nationalism isn't just some reaction by their citizens to unfairness, it's 100% cultivated by their gov't on purpose. I'm sorry, try talking to large number of mainland Chinese people first, they'll disagree with you. Blaming everything on "but Chinese people are brainwashed" is just an attempt to deny reality. You have an extreme view of the CCP's brainwashing capabilities. If they're that good at brainwashing, they would have eradicated many more down-to-earth societal problems a long time ago, such as the societal disdain for vocational jobs. They've been trying to get rid of the social stigma of vocational schools for years now, in order to prevent the job market from being crowded out by too many university graduates, but they've only had limited success. Try watching some actual Chinese propaganda for a while. You'll see that it's very primitive, not very convincing, and frankly quite bad. I don't know why everybody keeps thinking they're brainwashing masters without even having looked at all the materials.
  - ookblah 6y ago
    I mean you're misrepresenting what I said. I'm not handwaving away what they say as brainwashing. I'm just saying that the gov't has an inordinate effect of influence on their population. I don't view propaganda as a gov't drone on the TV telling you what to do ala NK, but just like the US, it's this permeating effect in the media and culture. I don't think every Chinese person thinks exactly the same way. But if you just look at the effects, they have a way of stirring nationalism that we do not have. Trump tried so hard to do the "China Virus" thing and look where that got him. And it's disingenuous to suggest because they can't hand wave away social problems inside the country that they somehow have "weak" influence. It's not an all or nothing. I'm curious what you're readings are on things softer things like the NBA ban over the tweet, things like ban on Korea products over THAAD (less off an over-reaction, but still), arm twisting Chinese/Korean actors/stars to support their worldview (see BTS stuff going on), Blizzard, etc. I can point to l0s of other examples where it is indeed an "over-reaction" on their part. This isn't even scratching the surface of their harder initiatives like in Africa. The "trajectory changing" as you mention is basically the rest of the world submitting to how China sees the world. And to be honest, I don't think that's "unfair" or anything, it's what they do as a country in position of power. It's also a cultural thing, pride, etc. (my personal opinion on this as well). I'm ethnically Chinese so yeah, I understand the mindset to some extent.
amelius 6y ago
I think it would help if we consider US companies potentially equally bad. For example, a US bank has the potential to make a lot of money from our personal data, and should be treated with suspicion just like any foreign company in that position.
jjoonathan 6y ago
> Imagine a world in which every article that mentions any American company, receives a torrent of comments calling for I don't have to imagine it because that's how it is. Heaven forbid we also call out the CCP when they do something much worse! Can't have any of that rational self interest, either. When China has rational self interest it's smart, but when the USA has rational self interest it's hypocrisy. CCP apologetics are so lame.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  > I don't have to imagine it because that's how it is. I really don't know what world you live in. I don't see widespread criticism against US non-state companies BECAUSE of their involvement with the US. Even talks about privacy issues are mostly about how those companies could abuse the data, not about how the US govt could abuse that data. I don't see many people calling for the banning of US non-state companies. I don't see US students and researchers being ousted out of other countries for being potential spies, even though there's no proof. I don't see people, who have a US background but living in other countries for a long time, being taken to parliament to unconditionally condemn the US govt before they're trusted as normal citizen. > Heaven forbid we also call out the CCP when they do something much worse! Calling out the CCP, and blanket banning all Chinese companies, are not at all the same thing, or even on the same level.
  - jjoonathan 6y ago
    > I don't see widespread criticism against US non-state companies BECAUSE of their involvement with the US. I do. The NSA comes up all the damn time. As it should. > I don't see many people calling for the banning of US non-state companies. People don't call for it because they just do it. It's not controversial. It was half of China's strategy and it has worked out spectacularly well for them because the US turned the other cheek. > I don't see US students and researchers being ousted out of other countries for being potential spies, even though there's no proof. If there's no proof, it's really an economic thing, not a spy thing. I got kicked out of Cambridge because my prospective PhD advisor had chosen to fund me with a grant that, it turned out, was exclusive to EU citizens. Outside the US this sort of protectionism doesn't merely exist, it exists and isn't controversial. > Calling out the CCP, and blanket banning all Chinese companies, are not at all the same thing, or even on the same level. We do the former because it's right and the latter because it's in our rational self interest. Just like China.
aww_dang 6y ago
>Everything remotely related to Chinese becomes under attack "because CCP bad". Which is why it is reasonable to discern between the CCP and China. I don't see sinophobia in criticism of the CCP. The counter-argument you present is closer to the straw man you're criticizing. Jack Ma is a CCP member. The CCP has a centrally planned command and control economy. Major players cannot exist without the sanction of the CCP. https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.bbc.com/news/business-46353767 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alibaba-jack-ma/alibabas-jack-ma-is-a-communist-party-member-china-state-paper-reveals-idUSKCN1NW073 https://www.reuters.com/article/us-alibaba-jack-ma/alibabas-... Concerns about the CCP controlling a global payment infrastructure are not anti-China. Please stop conflating the two ideas.
- FooBarWidget 6y ago
  A good point. But on the other hand, Jack Ma being a CCP member clearly doesn't mean that Ant is automatically a state-controlled company, as evidenced by this event: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24979327 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24979327