8 ms·

I thought about going to Amazon when I decided to get out of the startup world about 6 months ago. I went through the standard application process, and promptl

by daeken 16y ago

I thought about going to Amazon when I decided to get out of the startup world about 6 months ago. I went through the standard application process, and promptly closed the tab when I found that they would only accept my r�sum� in MS Word format -- rejected PDFs, HTML, and even plaintext. It may seem like a silly reason not to work somewhere, but I think that the hiring process says more about a company than just about anything else.

webspiderus 16y ago
I pretty much do the same - mostly since I decided to typeset my resume a while ago, and converting it to anything, particularly MS Word, just feels like a travesty.
flink 16y ago
I've never applied for a job at Amazon but I have done the same thing with other companies. When I was last looking for a job, I found a couple of interesting positions whose HR systems would only take resumes in MS Word. I closed the tab and kept searching. For me, it's a practical and ideological thing. My resume is written in LaTeX (with a plain text version) and unless I'm missing something, there is no good or easy way to convert from LaTeX to MS Word. I also have doubts about a company that insists on word documents - it smells like inflexibility and a heavy-handed top down management approach.
- esrauch 16y ago
  I think the source of this is that they use third party tools that automatically store/index/rip apart your resume for keywords. Theres obviously no reason why the third party tools don't support plaintext files, but it seems that they don't. Considering Amazon didn't develop the system, I don't think the choice of software by the HR department is really something that is safe to make generalizations from.
  - smutticus 16y ago
    <quote> All the effort we put into technology might not matter that much if we kept technology off to the side in some sort of R&D department, but we don’t take that approach. Technology infuses all of our teams, all of our processes, our decision-making, and our approach to innovation in each of our businesses. It is deeply integrated into everything we do. </quote> According to Bezos you're wrong. If technology infuses all of their processes that also includes hiring. And let's not forget Conway's law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law Everything matters. If only because good people will ignore companies that have stupid hiring processes.
    - esrauch 16y ago
      I honestly think its a bit of a stretch to think that Bezos was talking about the HR department when he said that. Do you think he was talking about the people that vacuum the floors and sell sandwiches in the cafeteria too?
- btilly 16y ago
  To convert LaTeX to word, use something like http://hyperlatex.sourceforge.net/ http://hyperlatex.sourceforge.net/ to convert it to HTML, and then rename it .doc. Word should be perfectly happy reading that. And a lot of places that say they only accept Word won't notice the difference. (I don't know about Amazon.)
  - derekp7 16y ago
    Actually, a lot of the places that require Word format use a tool which extracts relevant information from the resume to automatically populate their database. For some reason those custom tools don't work with text documents (go figure).
    - btilly 16y ago
      I didn't say it worked with all. But it works with a lot.
MatthewPhillips 16y ago
You're talking about HR here; they have no idea how to use anything other than Word. The idea of opening a PDF is foreign to their way of doing business, not just because a lack of know how, but because these are people who are very rigid in their processes. If I were to disregard companies that require Word I'd probably be unable to get a job where I live. I just disregard it, and what their qualifications supposedly are.
- jordanb 16y ago
  Word-only resumes indicate that the HR department is in control of the hiring process. This means that the company is passing up on excellent people for stupid reasons ("We're looking for people with "Unix" experience but this candidate only lists "Linux" and "BSD") and hiring incompetent people who happened to have won the Bingo game. So the HR department is in the driver's seat on hiring is a good proxy for determining how good their engineering is. Personally I think a better indicator than if a company is they Word-only or not is the quality of their job postings. HR is not competent to write job descriptions for engineers, and the idiotic descriptions that get passed around the internet are almost always an indicator that hiring is "HR's responsibility."
  - MatthewPhillips 16y ago
    Those job descriptions are stuff they find on the internet. It's divorced from the reality of the position; you only find that out when you do an actual interview. I'm not saying there aren't places where HR is in control of the hiring processes, but I also know from person experience that it can be the case where HR is in charge of posting positions and taking applications to simply hand off to Programming.
HockeyBiasDotCo 16y ago
I am truly surpised by the rigidness displayed regarding Word docs. Limiting opportunities in your life because an HR department uses the most common document app in the world seems self-defeating. Why not rule out cmapanies that use a certain type of printer paper?
- mavelikara 16y ago
  I have no problems with whatever document app the HR team is using. If they send me a doc file, I will read the information contained therein. In creating a document the author puts in more work than the reader; so as long as the format is not too onerous the author should be able to choose whatever tool is convenient to him/her. I hope that you agree that txt and pdf files are just as convenient formats to read as doc ones. IMHO it is irritating when someone insists that any document you send them should be in the format of the application they write documents with. Furthermore, these are no absolutes. If the State asks me to send a document in doc format, I will. Despite pretenses, these companies (and HR depts) are not Republic of Greater Timbuktu really - so I will skip, thank you. :)
- ZoFreX 16y ago
  It's a "bad smell". Too many bad smells and you don't apply for a job, it's like Bayesian filtering.
  - kenjackson 16y ago
    Bayesian filtering that works both ways. In fact we currently take PDF/Word/txt/RTF at my job. I'd actual considering narrowing it down to just Word. The type of person who decides that they don't want to submit in Word is probably a type of person that's not a good cultural fit. And I guess we've already ruled out those that prefer to send their resume via smoke signals only. As an employer it is more important to find good cultural fits than it is as an employee, since it is typically easier for employees to leave than it is to fire them.
    - deleted 16y ago
      [deleted]
ghshephard 16y ago
Of course, that goes both way. Any engineer so fixated on not using Microsoft Word, and unwilling to submit a resume in the format requested by their potential employer, might not work out well in a number of environments where they might gasp be required to use operating systems, applications, and methodologies that they were unfamiliar with, or downright opposed to. Works out well for everyone - so, to some degree, a valid filter.
- nerfhammer 16y ago
  Not everyone owns a copy of Word these days
  - natrius 16y ago
    That's ridiculous. There are plenty of programs that output MS Word format, or even RTF.
    - danudey 16y ago
      Sure, but most of them aren't 100%, and tend to lose formatting nuances. My resume looks awful when exported to MS Word, so I always have to load it up in a pirated copy or on someone else's computer, tweak it there, and then send it on. I hate the idea of using commercial software that I haven't paid for, so it just irks me that this is required.
      - tzury 16y ago
        dude, in some companies these days, you better off not mentioning MS WORD as an integral part of your toolbox. Want an impressive resume? Think latex! Want an even more impressive? Build up your resume and portfolio online.
    - quanticle 16y ago
      Yeah, but the MS Word format is vague enough, that the only way to ensure that someone else sees the same document you're seeing is to ensure that they're opening the document on the same version of Word, with the same OS and the same fonts that you have.
DavidSJ 16y ago
I never went to college. I submitted a PDF résumé. Amazon hired me.
technomancy 16y ago
> closed the tab when I found that they would only accept my r�sum� in MS Word format Why not just send it in a decent format and see what happens? Just because they say they'll reject it doesn't mean they will.
- daeken 16y ago
  I did -- I initially just dropped it in there, then saw the ".doc only" notice after it errored out.
jsolson 16y ago
This is... odd. I started at Amazon in January, and as of November, plain text was the preferred format for resumes. Then again, mine got into the system through the employee referral program, so perhaps it takes different inputs.
jontas 16y ago
For what it's worth, their job site now says you paste your resume into a box: http://www.amazon.com/How-Apply-Help-Careers-Homepage/b/ref=amb_link_6001432_4?ie=UTF8&node=239370011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0CV8CN2Z0JZ599B2C4AR&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=434481001&pf_rd_i=203348011 http://www.amazon.com/How-Apply-Help-Careers-Homepage/b/ref=... I don't know about 6 months ago, perhaps their policy has changed.

by daeken 16y ago

webspiderus 16y ago

I pretty much do the same - mostly since I decided to typeset my resume a while ago, and converting it to anything, particularly MS Word, just feels like a travesty.

flink 16y ago

I've never applied for a job at Amazon but I have done the same thing with other companies. When I was last looking for a job, I found a couple of interesting positions whose HR systems would only take resumes in MS Word. I closed the tab and kept searching. For me, it's a practical and ideological thing. My resume is written in LaTeX (with a plain text version) and unless I'm missing something, there is no good or easy way to convert from LaTeX to MS Word. I also have doubts about a company that insists on word documents - it smells like inflexibility and a heavy-handed top down management approach.

esrauch 16y ago
I think the source of this is that they use third party tools that automatically store/index/rip apart your resume for keywords. Theres obviously no reason why the third party tools don't support plaintext files, but it seems that they don't. Considering Amazon didn't develop the system, I don't think the choice of software by the HR department is really something that is safe to make generalizations from.
- smutticus 16y ago
  <quote> All the effort we put into technology might not matter that much if we kept technology off to the side in some sort of R&D department, but we don’t take that approach. Technology infuses all of our teams, all of our processes, our decision-making, and our approach to innovation in each of our businesses. It is deeply integrated into everything we do. </quote> According to Bezos you're wrong. If technology infuses all of their processes that also includes hiring. And let's not forget Conway's law. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conway%27s_Law Everything matters. If only because good people will ignore companies that have stupid hiring processes.
  - esrauch 16y ago
    I honestly think its a bit of a stretch to think that Bezos was talking about the HR department when he said that. Do you think he was talking about the people that vacuum the floors and sell sandwiches in the cafeteria too?
btilly 16y ago
To convert LaTeX to word, use something like http://hyperlatex.sourceforge.net/ http://hyperlatex.sourceforge.net/ to convert it to HTML, and then rename it .doc. Word should be perfectly happy reading that. And a lot of places that say they only accept Word won't notice the difference. (I don't know about Amazon.)
- derekp7 16y ago
  Actually, a lot of the places that require Word format use a tool which extracts relevant information from the resume to automatically populate their database. For some reason those custom tools don't work with text documents (go figure).
  - btilly 16y ago
    I didn't say it worked with all. But it works with a lot.

MatthewPhillips 16y ago

You're talking about HR here; they have no idea how to use anything other than Word. The idea of opening a PDF is foreign to their way of doing business, not just because a lack of know how, but because these are people who are very rigid in their processes. If I were to disregard companies that require Word I'd probably be unable to get a job where I live. I just disregard it, and what their qualifications supposedly are.

jordanb 16y ago
Word-only resumes indicate that the HR department is in control of the hiring process. This means that the company is passing up on excellent people for stupid reasons ("We're looking for people with "Unix" experience but this candidate only lists "Linux" and "BSD") and hiring incompetent people who happened to have won the Bingo game. So the HR department is in the driver's seat on hiring is a good proxy for determining how good their engineering is. Personally I think a better indicator than if a company is they Word-only or not is the quality of their job postings. HR is not competent to write job descriptions for engineers, and the idiotic descriptions that get passed around the internet are almost always an indicator that hiring is "HR's responsibility."
- MatthewPhillips 16y ago
  Those job descriptions are stuff they find on the internet. It's divorced from the reality of the position; you only find that out when you do an actual interview. I'm not saying there aren't places where HR is in control of the hiring processes, but I also know from person experience that it can be the case where HR is in charge of posting positions and taking applications to simply hand off to Programming.

HockeyBiasDotCo 16y ago

I am truly surpised by the rigidness displayed regarding Word docs. Limiting opportunities in your life because an HR department uses the most common document app in the world seems self-defeating. Why not rule out cmapanies that use a certain type of printer paper?

mavelikara 16y ago
I have no problems with whatever document app the HR team is using. If they send me a doc file, I will read the information contained therein. In creating a document the author puts in more work than the reader; so as long as the format is not too onerous the author should be able to choose whatever tool is convenient to him/her. I hope that you agree that txt and pdf files are just as convenient formats to read as doc ones. IMHO it is irritating when someone insists that any document you send them should be in the format of the application they write documents with. Furthermore, these are no absolutes. If the State asks me to send a document in doc format, I will. Despite pretenses, these companies (and HR depts) are not Republic of Greater Timbuktu really - so I will skip, thank you. :)
ZoFreX 16y ago
It's a "bad smell". Too many bad smells and you don't apply for a job, it's like Bayesian filtering.
- kenjackson 16y ago
  Bayesian filtering that works both ways. In fact we currently take PDF/Word/txt/RTF at my job. I'd actual considering narrowing it down to just Word. The type of person who decides that they don't want to submit in Word is probably a type of person that's not a good cultural fit. And I guess we've already ruled out those that prefer to send their resume via smoke signals only. As an employer it is more important to find good cultural fits than it is as an employee, since it is typically easier for employees to leave than it is to fire them.
  - deleted 16y ago
    [deleted]

ghshephard 16y ago

Of course, that goes both way. Any engineer so fixated on not using Microsoft Word, and unwilling to submit a resume in the format requested by their potential employer, might not work out well in a number of environments where they might gasp be required to use operating systems, applications, and methodologies that they were unfamiliar with, or downright opposed to. Works out well for everyone - so, to some degree, a valid filter.

nerfhammer 16y ago
Not everyone owns a copy of Word these days
- natrius 16y ago
  That's ridiculous. There are plenty of programs that output MS Word format, or even RTF.
  - danudey 16y ago
    Sure, but most of them aren't 100%, and tend to lose formatting nuances. My resume looks awful when exported to MS Word, so I always have to load it up in a pirated copy or on someone else's computer, tweak it there, and then send it on. I hate the idea of using commercial software that I haven't paid for, so it just irks me that this is required.
    - tzury 16y ago
      dude, in some companies these days, you better off not mentioning MS WORD as an integral part of your toolbox. Want an impressive resume? Think latex! Want an even more impressive? Build up your resume and portfolio online.
  - quanticle 16y ago
    Yeah, but the MS Word format is vague enough, that the only way to ensure that someone else sees the same document you're seeing is to ensure that they're opening the document on the same version of Word, with the same OS and the same fonts that you have.

DavidSJ 16y ago

I never went to college. I submitted a PDF résumé. Amazon hired me.

technomancy 16y ago

> closed the tab when I found that they would only accept my r�sum� in MS Word format Why not just send it in a decent format and see what happens? Just because they say they'll reject it doesn't mean they will.

daeken 16y ago
I did -- I initially just dropped it in there, then saw the ".doc only" notice after it errored out.

jsolson 16y ago

This is... odd. I started at Amazon in January, and as of November, plain text was the preferred format for resumes. Then again, mine got into the system through the employee referral program, so perhaps it takes different inputs.

jontas 16y ago

For what it's worth, their job site now says you paste your resume into a box: http://www.amazon.com/How-Apply-Help-Careers-Homepage/b/ref=amb_link_6001432_4?ie=UTF8&node=239370011&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_s=center-2&pf_rd_r=0CV8CN2Z0JZ599B2C4AR&pf_rd_t=101&pf_rd_p=434481001&pf_rd_i=203348011 http://www.amazon.com/How-Apply-Help-Careers-Homepage/b/ref=... I don't know about 6 months ago, perhaps their policy has changed.