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I'd like to chip in with a slightly different take ... as a minority engineer, one of my greatest sources of frustration and disillusionment is how an occupatio

I'd like to chip in with a slightly different take ... as a minority engineer, one of my greatest sources of frustration and disillusionment is how an occupation that is ostensibly lends itself to much clearer and objective outcomes and approaches is anything but. There is an unfairness that is so hard to see if you're not a minority in tech, that leads to lots of minority men just saying 'fuck it, this isn't worth it' (there's even an article about this https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/04/27/toxic-workplaces-technology-women-minorities-retention/100977038/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/tech/news/2017/04/27/toxic-wo...), and recently I've been finding myself on that same path ... at least till my fortunes changed and I got a different more understanding manager. But the bitterness of my experiences with previous managers, the powerlessness you feel in the face of being treated so differently never leaves you. It really sucks to find out that the whole idea of it just being about the code, meritocracy blah blah blah ... isn't really true. And worse still, that quite a large group of people, don't really buy that this stuff really happens.

pdonis 6y ago
> It really sucks to find out that the whole idea of it just being about the code, meritocracy blah blah blah ... isn't really true. Have you considered starting your own company so you have control of how employees are treated? More generally, this seems to me to be a potential solution to the disillusionment problem described in the article that is not often considered. Bad management and bad treatment of employees should be bad business; but for that to be the case, companies that do those things have to face competition from companies that don't.
- KittenInABox 6y ago
  Statistically minorities are also undervalued in terms of investment, FWIW. People are less likely to invest in your company if you're a minority. (Some will even refuse to provide you business because you're a minority.)
  - pdonis 6y ago
    > Statistically minorities are also undervalued in terms of investment Have you considered starting a venture capital fund that does a better job of investing in businesses that existing capital allocation underinvests in? Again, failing to invest enough in businesses that are worth the investment should be bad business, and companies that fail in that way should face competition from companies that don't.
- tolbish 6y ago
  Are you going to lend him $500,000 to start this business? After all, banks and investors want to make sure they invest in the right people. Wouldn't want to throw your money away at a "risky investment". Also where are their initial customers going to come from? If you don't attend the right schools or network with the right people from early on in life, why would people go out of their way to attach themselves socially to someone who is unproven? Yes, just start a business...if only it were that easy!
  - coffeemug 6y ago
    This is bullshit because (a) there are many VC funds now explicitly earmarked for minority founders and run by minority partners, and (b) an enormous number of successful startups are started by first generation immigrants who didn't go to fancy schools here.
    - tolbish 6y ago
      The perception of first generation immigrants is a bit different than the perception of black people in the United States, generally speaking. In addition, being a minority founder doesn't mean funding is automatic. Investors still like seeing the right credentials, even for minorities.
  - pdonis 6y ago
    If it is true that the game is rigged, which is basically what you're saying, the only way to stop it from being rigged is to out-compete it. Just shrugging your shoulders and saying, well, there's no point in trying because the game is rigged, just means the game stays rigged forever.
screye 6y ago
I would be interested in knowing a bit more about your experiences. As a South-Asian in tech, I have no clue what it is like to be a minority in tech. While I can to some extent understand how being a woman might be difficult, I am not quite sure what aspects of being a racial minority affect your performance at a tech job. If you could enumerate some of those blindspots, I'd really appreciate it.
jimbokun 6y ago
Do you have any good links for anecdotes about the concrete ways in which this kind of discrimination occurs? The USA Today article is helpful for seeing aggregate statistics, but I don't really get how these kind of biases played out in real life. Does it look like explicit, unapologetic racist comments? Or micro-aggressions that where the speaker may not realize what they are doing? Or that and everything in between? I am not asking for your personal examples, as that would be prying. More along the lines of anonymous stories to better understand other people's experiences.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
iaHN 6y ago
I worked at a big tech company for a few years. The moment I knew I was done with them was when the VP of our division said, during a quarterly all-hands "...and we're very hip too. We've hired quite a number of African Americans..." People will be quick to remind you, both overtly and implicitly, that your skin color is a political tool.

pdonis 6y ago

> It really sucks to find out that the whole idea of it just being about the code, meritocracy blah blah blah ... isn't really true. Have you considered starting your own company so you have control of how employees are treated? More generally, this seems to me to be a potential solution to the disillusionment problem described in the article that is not often considered. Bad management and bad treatment of employees should be bad business; but for that to be the case, companies that do those things have to face competition from companies that don't.

KittenInABox 6y ago
Statistically minorities are also undervalued in terms of investment, FWIW. People are less likely to invest in your company if you're a minority. (Some will even refuse to provide you business because you're a minority.)
- pdonis 6y ago
  > Statistically minorities are also undervalued in terms of investment Have you considered starting a venture capital fund that does a better job of investing in businesses that existing capital allocation underinvests in? Again, failing to invest enough in businesses that are worth the investment should be bad business, and companies that fail in that way should face competition from companies that don't.
tolbish 6y ago
Are you going to lend him $500,000 to start this business? After all, banks and investors want to make sure they invest in the right people. Wouldn't want to throw your money away at a "risky investment". Also where are their initial customers going to come from? If you don't attend the right schools or network with the right people from early on in life, why would people go out of their way to attach themselves socially to someone who is unproven? Yes, just start a business...if only it were that easy!
- coffeemug 6y ago
  This is bullshit because (a) there are many VC funds now explicitly earmarked for minority founders and run by minority partners, and (b) an enormous number of successful startups are started by first generation immigrants who didn't go to fancy schools here.
  - tolbish 6y ago
    The perception of first generation immigrants is a bit different than the perception of black people in the United States, generally speaking. In addition, being a minority founder doesn't mean funding is automatic. Investors still like seeing the right credentials, even for minorities.
- pdonis 6y ago
  If it is true that the game is rigged, which is basically what you're saying, the only way to stop it from being rigged is to out-compete it. Just shrugging your shoulders and saying, well, there's no point in trying because the game is rigged, just means the game stays rigged forever.

screye 6y ago

I would be interested in knowing a bit more about your experiences. As a South-Asian in tech, I have no clue what it is like to be a minority in tech. While I can to some extent understand how being a woman might be difficult, I am not quite sure what aspects of being a racial minority affect your performance at a tech job. If you could enumerate some of those blindspots, I'd really appreciate it.

jimbokun 6y ago

Do you have any good links for anecdotes about the concrete ways in which this kind of discrimination occurs? The USA Today article is helpful for seeing aggregate statistics, but I don't really get how these kind of biases played out in real life. Does it look like explicit, unapologetic racist comments? Or micro-aggressions that where the speaker may not realize what they are doing? Or that and everything in between? I am not asking for your personal examples, as that would be prying. More along the lines of anonymous stories to better understand other people's experiences.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

iaHN 6y ago

I worked at a big tech company for a few years. The moment I knew I was done with them was when the VP of our division said, during a quarterly all-hands "...and we're very hip too. We've hired quite a number of African Americans..." People will be quick to remind you, both overtly and implicitly, that your skin color is a political tool.