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Apple Q&A on gathering and use of location data (Apple Press Release)
- pieter 15y ago5. Can Apple locate me based on my geo-tagged Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data? No. This data is sent to Apple in an anonymous and encrypted form. Apple cannot identify the source of this data I hate it when companies use 'encrypted' like it would somehow make your data more secure in their hands. They mean here they use something like SSL so snooping the traffic is impossible, but of course they can still read what you're sending, otherwise the information would be useless to them. The claim that apple can't identify the source of the data is also highly dubious. If they wanted to, they could probably correlate your IP with the IP used to access your iTunes account. That they don't do this is one thing, but claiming that they can't is something else. EDIT: come on HN, since when did we start downvoting stuff you don't want to hear? This is a valid point, if you have critizism just leave a comment. If you want to downvote something, do it on the summary comments. Sheesh.
- yalogin 15y agoI understand being cynical but in this case the keyword is anonymous. The encryption is for protecting in transit like you said. In order to populate their wi-fi/location database they really don't have to send over a person's IP to the server. In fact its something they don't want I would assume as it adds absolutely no value to the data. They already know who you are and where you are don't they?
- pieter 15y agoThey receive your IP address because that's how IP works; otherwise they wouldn't have an address to send data back (and IP packets with a spoofed source IP are dropped immediately). They might not do anything with it, but they definitely have access to it.
- yalogin 15y agoI was specifically talking about storing your IP along with the location data. That makes no sense as it does not add value to the data. They have access to it sure. But they have access to it through a lot of other methods. In fact they even have your credit card information. You gave to it them :)
- ugh 15y agoSure, that's why they say "anonymous". If they do not delete the IP address as soon as technically possible they are lying about the anonymous part. This is not about ability. This is about trust. They say the data is anonymous which means they are obligated to disregard the IP address and to not log it anywhere.
- pieter 15y ago"This is not about ability" Sure it is. That's exactly what the following statement means: "Apple cannot identify the source of this data". How can you interpret that as anything else but their ability of identifying the source? The statement is obviously not true; if they were forced to, by a government agency for example, to track the location information from a user from that point on they COULD; saying they can't is wrong IMHO. The correct thing to say here is that they can, but they don't, unless forced to. But I guess that isn't the message Apple wants to communicate.
- ugh 15y agoIf you want to be super petty about it, sure. I don't think that sentence is supposed to be read that way.
- wowamit 15y agoOut of context, that is what the statement would read. But with context I would read it as "Apple cannot identify the source of this data 'stored without IP addresses with us'"
- willyt 15y agoIsn't most wifi NAT with DHCP? what use is a big list of ip's like 192.168.1.45? They might be able to track you from the MAC address maybe?
- cooldeal 15y ago>EDIT: come on HN, since when did we start downvoting stuff you don't want to hear? This is a valid point, if you have critizism just leave a comment. If you want to downvote something, do it on the summary comments. Sheesh. You must be new to HN, any post that can be construed as criticizing Apple, whether legitimate or not will either be ignored or downvoted. On the other hand, anything justifying Apple's actions, whether true or not will be heavily upvoted.
- cubicle67 15y agoYou must be new to HN too, or you haven't actually read many HN Apple discussions
- sklivvz1971 15y ago3. Why is my iPhone logging my location? The iPhone is not logging your location. Rather, it’s maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location, some of which may be located more than one hundred miles away from your iPhone, to help your iPhone rapidly and accurately calculate its location when requested This actually makes sense - looking at the logs on my iPhone and iPad, the locations where pretty far away from the places where I usually roam, and actually there was a very great deal of places where I've never been, not even close.
- uwsnyc 15y agoSo - while your current location isn't logged, enough data is logged to derive your current location?
- cooldeal 15y ago>and actually there was a very great deal of places where I've never been, not even close. How does that make sense? It should only cache the locations of cell phone towers it was in the range of. Are you seeing data that was more than 100 miles away from the places you were at?
- thenduks 15y ago> Are you seeing data that was more than 100 miles away from the places you were at? Yes, actually. I used the app that was posted and, even after I modified the code to stop fuzzy-ing the data, I was thinking to myself "well, I've never been anywhere close to there".
- sklivvz1971 15y agoI live in the south of England and some places were in the north. Yes, I would say some of the locations are 100 miles away from me at all times.
- andos 15y agoNope. It's a local (geographically speaking) slice of a huge database of hotspots. There is a concentration of points downtown, a few points at the local airport, others at touristic destinations nearby. Most are places I've never been at. It is nothing but a very neat cache. The nerd in me is sad to see it go.
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- delphi42 15y ago"In the next major iOS software release the cache will also be encrypted on the iPhone." Great, thanks a lot! Now I no longer have the option of viewing what law enforcement will be able to get anyways. Nor will I have access to what essentially was a pretty neat database to look through.
- eli 15y agoNot to sound flip, but if you're concerned about law enforcement tracking your movements, you should leave the phone at home.
- jkahn 15y agoNot flippant at all. Law enforcement can track where you are through your telco even if you don't have a fancy phone. And they can do it live.
- pieter 15y agoThat probably only works for local telco's. With Apple's info, US agencies can track anyone with an iPhone in the world, even if the telco's there don't want to cooperate.
- ja2ke 15y ago... After they physically seize your phone or home PC, to read this only-locally-stored file, of course.
- delphi42 15y agoTrue -- or don't use a cell-phone at all: http://news.cnet.com/Cell-phone-tracking-raises-privacy-issues/2100-1033_3-846744.html http://news.cnet.com/Cell-phone-tracking-raises-privacy-issu.... I guess what I really meant was I'm happier knowing what they're keeping. Future versions may add other features of interest & we'll never know. I wonder what this story would have been like if this database was originally encrypted & then it was discovered. "Apple attempts to hide location tracker on your iPhone via encryption!"
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- ry0ohki 15y agoSad, I wish they would make it an option to track this forever instead of removing all but 7 days.
- xuki 15y agoWell you can at least for the next few months, just don't update your OS
- ugh 15y agoWhere's the fluff? Seemed pretty straightforward to me.
- ilikepi 15y agoIt's not fluff, it's an attempt to appease many groups of people with different levels of technical ability. You may see some of the information as fluff because you already understand it, but many people (e.g. people who don't read tech sites and have only heard about this issue from a 45-second story on their local TV news) are confused and are looking for these answers.
- yalogin 15y agoThis is a perfectly reasonable explanation. I have seen this more and more lately, the standard reaction to anything Apple in the tech community is pitchforks. I have a feeling subconsciously we all want Apple to fail at something and try to latch on to anything remotely blamable.
- cooldeal 15y ago>I have seen this more and more lately, the standard reaction to anything Apple in the tech community is pitchforks. I have a feeling subconsciously we all want Apple to fail at something and try to latch on to anything remotely blamable. I think that's a counter reaction to a whole bunch of people who think Apple can do no wrong at all.
- dhechols 15y agoExactly, but I think it's rational. Software is hard, damn hard to get right -- even if you get the math side correct, there's always UX to damn your product. It's only reasonable that a company that gets so many things _right_ is both so loved by some, and expectant to fail by others.
- roc 15y agoFunny how those people always come up in conversation, but we never seem to catch them in the act.
- MatthewPhillips 15y agoI think the reaction was appropriate. It confirms the major points that people were upset about: 1) that the data is stored unencrypted, 2) that it lives even after you turn off location services, 3) that it was taken without explicit permission. This press release doesn't change any of those points, it merely places the blame on bugs (which wouldn't have been patched had the story not been uncovered). Isn't this comparable to the Google/Buzz fiasco, which was met with similar (deserved) scorn?
- Anechoic 15y ago
- ajdecon 15y agoSometime in the next few weeks Apple will release a free iOS software update that: - reduces the size of the crowd-sourced Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower database cached on the iPhone, - ceases backing up this cache, and - deletes this cache entirely when Location Services is turned off. Looks reasonable to me. The only thing missing that I'd like to see is an option to opt out of the tracking data (anonymous or not).
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- schrototo 15y agoHm, although an opt-out option might seem a reasonable request, Apple has to draw a line somewhere. If you want to have fast and accurate positioning, you have to provide them with your anonymous tracking data. That's the tradeoff, which I think is also reasonable to most people. (I wish Apple would take that same stance with regard to crash logs. If you want stuff from the App Store, you have to let iTunes send your crash logs to the developers, without having to ask for permission first. There really is no good reason why anyone would need to opt-out of that.)
- biafra 15y ago"If you want to have fast and accurate positioning, you have to provide them with your anonymous tracking data." No I don't have to. I am currently working on an offline positioning system based on a (hopefully complete) dataset of all GSM-Cells in the world (http://myapp.fr/cellsIdData/ http://myapp.fr/cellsIdData/). The sqlite3-database is currently 25MB big with some room for optimization. I do this for Android but the iPhone also has enough space to hold this data. Although I think it would be impossible with iOS because of missing APIs to be notified when the cell tower changes. I'm sure that cell towers are enough for Assisted GPS to get a quick fix. If people would have found a data set of all cell towers ids and coordinates no one would have had concerns about privacy. Tracking data is only anonymous if it cannot be de-anonymized. Since I cannot check that this is not the case (with Apple, Google and Skyhook) I have doubts about the so called anonymity. edit: I am looking for a comprehensive dataset of wifi access points MAC-adresses and coordinates
- sounddust 15y agoI often travel internationally (with no data roaming) and I've noticed that the iPhone's A-GPS is incapable of determining my location when I arrive in a new place, even if I've pre-loaded my route/maps in the maps application prior to arrival. But once I've connected to the internet - even for a few seconds - my phone is permanently able to track itself in that city, even after I've left and returned months later. It's going to be unfortunate when I can't do this anymore because of people blowing this issue out of proportion. I hope Apple will at least provide the option of caching this data for longer than 7 days.
- pilif 15y agoWell. If you are near an access point apple knows about or just by geolocating your IP address, the iPhone can still download datapoints from that central database that allow it to quickly locate you. That file on the iphone is just a local copy of the relevant parts of the central database. Sure. It might be 10 seconds instead of one second now, but that's a reasonable tradeoff compared to the huge log it currently makes. IMHO.
- pieter 15y agoPoint is that he's turning roaming off, and probably doesn't have access to WiFi in the foreign city. By having the database, you don't need a data connection at all, thus saving money.
- seabee 15y agoHe had to connect to the internet in the foreign city at least once before. The difference is now it must be every time.
- wlesieutre 15y agoRight, but if you travel there semi-frequently, it would be nice to not pay for it each time. Cheap relative to the airfare, but every bit helps.
- 15y ago
- foobarbazetc 15y agoOh no, reasonable and accurate information. Plus a list of things they plan to do to fix it. What will we all hate on Apple about next?
- cooldeal 15y agoSo you think the people who were reporting on these issues and caused Apple to fix them did it to hate on Apple? Tthe issues were real and not made up because Apple is now fixing them. Would they have fixed it if every reporter acted like Gruber? Why do some people take it as a personal insult if people point out that Apple can ship buggy software?
- apinstein 15y agoI think people jumped to the conclusion that Apple was logging your actual location, which would be a big deal, and published it as fact. It's a great story and gets traffic. That said, I cannot imagine that if they'd contacted Apple about the issue they would have gotten a useful answer without the publicity. Bottom line though is that any sufficiently sensational story gets traffic regardless of its truth or lack of attempt to even verify the veracity of the alleged problem.
- MatthewPhillips 15y agoThere were plenty of sensational stories, sure. There were also many reasonable stories that debated what was being tracked, many of which were discussed on HN. You can't invalidate a story because some people become sensationalist, that always happens on any controversial story.
- apinstein 15y agoI am sure that lots of people discussed the story; but the original story that kicked it all pitched it as an "Apple is tracking you and the guys in black suits are using it to convict you of crimes" story.
- 15y ago
- Cherian_Abraham 15y agoFrom the press release: Apple is now collecting anonymous traffic data to build a crowd-sourced traffic database with the goal of providing iPhone users an improved traffic service in the next couple of years. .... Let me guess...Where, all roads lead to Apple? EDIT: I posted this fully knowing it will be unpopular. But reading the press release gave me the feeling that Apple was using a sleight of hands by turning the public's focus from the privacy and security issues this incident has amplified and brought to the public's view, and instead is saying "Gee..We were doing y'all a favor by building a better maps app, and now you come along and screwed that up". Security is not an afterthought people. Hasn't the Sony fiasco that is still unraveling taught us anything?
- extension 15y agoIronically, shrinking the geolocation cache will result in more frequent requests to the server, making it theoretically easier for Apple to track your location.
- mcantelon 15y agoGPS doesn't require requests to a server, AFAIK.
- ugh 15y agoMore frequent requests to get nearby WLAN access points and cell towers.
- alphakappa 15y agoIn practice, it does. The reason you get fast fixes is most likely due to AGPS, and that would require getting aiding data from a server.
- crb 15y agoI wondered if this was important enough to them that they would link it from the front page of apple.com (as Steve's "Thoughts on Flash" was.) Oooh! White iPhone 4 tomorrow! Shiny. What was I looking for again? Apple PR couldn't ask for better timing.
- thought_alarm 15y agoI use location services on an iPod touch almost daily and without a network connection. The location cache is currently limited by size. It seems to hold about a small city's worth of wifi hotspot coordinates, which is downloaded in large blocks at a time. Reducing the size of the wifi location cache to a mere 7 days could severely reduce the usefulness of that feature. I really hope they're not killing a great feature because of some hysteria and bad reporting.
- roc 15y agoWhen the update moves and encrypts the cache, it's really anyone's guess as to how long the history will go back. If it's going to harm use, I don't doubt Apple would turn that 7 into a 14 or a 30 without batting an eye.
- diminish 15y agothis q&a is misleading a bit. iphone downloads locations around hotspots u have already been close to by timestamping, and it means ur approximate location+timestamp was logged indefinitely on ur phone and copied to PC, though indirect. the whole q&a is a simple game words to trick users. `apple is not tracking ur location` but `your approximate location is downloaded, timestamped and stored on ur mobile phone due to a bug` this whole wording is can't even trick a child. look at the result.
- packetlss 15y agoSo it was a bug after all. This was one of the best responses out of a big corporation I've seen in ages. They even explain the function of it, not often that you see that.
- deleted 15y ago[deleted]
- ramen 15y agoI assume that my ancient iPhone 3G will be exempt from this privacy update.
- ralfd 15y agoAs this is a security fix I bet there will be an iOS 4.2.2
- rakkhi 15y agoGreat clear response from Apple. Patch is a good outcome, turning off location service actually stopping tracking and limitation to 7 days are very good moves.
- tjogin 15y ago8. What other location data is Apple collecting from the iPhone besides crowd-sourced Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data? Apple is now collecting anonymous traffic data to build a crowd-sourced traffic database with the goal of providing iPhone users an improved traffic service in the next couple of years. Interesting. Apple generally does not pre-release information about upcoming products, at all. They must have felt their hand forced in this, or Jobs is not at the helm of this press release (which I'm sure he is).
- recoiledsnake 15y agoThe government got involved and there were going to be congressional hearings with Apple and Google representatives over this.
- mrcharles 15y agoIMO the most interesting thing -- I was just daydreaming on the way to work of a mapping app that basically tracked your route, and compared timestamps of movement against expected times to generate an accurate realtime traffic map when shared with a central server. The problem with traffic info right now is that it's always either laughably late (see sirius/xm traffic info) or it's based on eyes-in-the-sky style updates from radio, which you can only get every period of time.
- MatthewPhillips 15y agoGoogle Maps on Android does exactly that, it's great. especially in the summer time, makes it easy to find ways around construction.
- tlrobinson 15y agoTraffic data from sensors in the road has always seemed fairly accurate to me. I also like the idea of using millions of iPhones' locations to get comprehensive traffic data. However it's vaguely reminiscent of the cell phone sonar surveillance system in The Dark Knight.
- boredguy8 15y ago
- sudonim 15y ago"The reason the iPhone stores so much data is a bug we uncovered and plan to fix shortly" A bug _you_ uncovered?
- roc 15y agoHey, they never said how they uncovered it. ;)
- mcantelon 15y agoTwo lies: the "bug" was uncovered a considerable time ago (August 2010 was when I read the first story talking about it) and was first exposed by third-parties (so if Apple did "uncover" it, they've been sitting on this discover for some time). https://alexlevinson.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/3-major-issues-with-the-latest-iphone-tracking-discovery/ https://alexlevinson.wordpress.com/2011/04/21/3-major-issues...
- jws 15y agoYou speak of the symptoms of the bug as if they were the bug, consider this one act play: • The internet claims Apple is tracking all iPhone owners! • Steve Jobs interrupts family time to exclaim "WTF!" • SJ: "Minion! Verify this claim!" • Minion: "It is true, to the extent that we keep large, possibly unbounded, volumes of cell tower and wifi access point in the cache for the purpose of…" SNICKER-SNACK… thump. • SJ: "Engineering, fix this. Marketing, communicate this.", returns to family time. • Engineering to engineer: "Fix this." • Engineer to self: "I do not know why this happens, I will search and uncover this bug." <<<--- there, that is where the bug is uncovered. He fixes the purge code from whatever simple or broken strategy the first coder used, perhaps deleting the comment that says "// might need to prune the cache, but the OS probably does that when it gets too big" • Marketing: "What? We were busy hiding the links on the home page until you respect our new iPad2, but ok, we can crank out a press release if it saves us from the vorpal blade." DOWN CURTAIN // insert character development and pathos before first rehearsal
- ugh 15y agoSee, that's the kind of mean spirited reading of texts I hate so much. They were made aware of the issue, they looked at the code and (they claim) that it doesn't behave as designed because of a bug. This is them saying "We didn't design the cache to never be purged, that's a bug." Whether you believe that or not is your own problem but that's the whole story, writing "a bug we uncovered" is entirely appropriate in that context.
- msravi 15y ago1. This explanation seems to ignore the timestamps that are stored along with the hotspots/towers data. What do the timestamps represent? The time when the cache was downloaded onto the phone? 2. Speculatively, the way this seems to work is, that the phone identifies a tower, say, with ID12345. It then looks up the crowdsourced database for the tower with this ID, and queries it for all towers/hotspots within X miles radius. The result of the query is logged into the consolidated.db file, along with the current timestamp. 3. I don't know about the 100 miles number, but for me, in an urban setting, it certainly seems to be accurate upto approximately a mile or so, that together with the timestamp, gives a reasonably accurate picture of where I've been, and when.
- mikeryan 15y agoThis explanation seems to ignore the timestamps that are stored along with the hotspots/towers data. What do the timestamps represent? As a devils advocate, if I'm a developer writing some sort of logging routine I'm including a timestamp without even thinking about how or why it would be used. Its a logger its supposed to have timestamps ;-)
- glenra 15y agoIf the goal is to only keep the data around for, say, 7 days, you need timestamps to determine when each piece was last downloaded, no?
- scorpion032 15y ago> Apple is now collecting anonymous traffic data to build a crowd-sourced traffic database with the goal of providing iPhone users an improved traffic service in the next couple of years. Wow!
- brudgers 15y ago>"The iPhone is not logging your location. Rather, it’s maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location, some of which may be located more than one hundred miles away from your iPhone, to help your iPhone rapidly and accurately calculate its location when requested. Calculating a phone’s location using just GPS satellite data can take up to several minutes. iPhone can reduce this time to just a few seconds by using Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data to quickly find GPS satellites, and even triangulate its location using just Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data when GPS is not available (such as indoors or in basements). These calculations are performed live on the iPhone using a crowd-sourced database of Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data that is generated by tens of millions of iPhones sending the geo-tagged locations of nearby Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers in an anonymous and encrypted form to Apple." Some are located more than 100 miles away because the database contains every location ever logged. Despite the fact that hotspots and cell towers over the horizon cannot play a role in accurately determining your location, Apple's response is intended to create the impression that they play such a role and thus justify permanent storage. Furthermore, short of magic, there is no way to send a relevant subset of the crowd sourced data to an iPhone without first knowing both the location of the iPhone and its unique identity. >"The entire crowd-sourced database is too big to store on an iPhone, so we download an appropriate subset (cache) onto each iPhone. This cache is protected but not encrypted, and is backed up in iTunes whenever you back up your iPhone. The backup is encrypted or not, depending on the user settings in iTunes. The location data that researchers are seeing on the iPhone is not the past or present location of the iPhone, but rather the locations of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers surrounding the iPhone’s location, which can be more than one hundred miles away from the iPhone." Apple is trying to create the impression that storing the data from which location can be triangulated is somehow significantly different from storing the actual location and again creating misdirection with the reference to "more than one hundred miles away from the iPhone." >"5. Can Apple locate me based on my geo-tagged Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data? No. This data is sent to Apple in an anonymous and encrypted form. Apple cannot identify the source of this data." In an interesting shift of language, Apple's answer is technically about the person's location rather than the location of the iPhone and it could be argued that in this context "source" refers to the person using the iPhone rather than the identity of the iPhone. Given that "cannot" rather than "do not" is used, the limitation does not correlate with something in an algorithm since an algorithm can be changed to identify the specific iPhone.
- DanielBMarkham 15y agoThe iPhone is not logging your location. Rather, it’s maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location, some of which may be located more than one hundred miles away from your iPhone, to help your iPhone rapidly and accurately calculate its location when requested Can Apple locate me based on my geo-tagged Wi-Fi hotspot and cell tower data? No. This data is sent to Apple in an anonymous and encrypted form. Apple cannot identify the source of this data. I think a lot of folks who spent money on Apple products are going to be happy with this, and for that I'm glad. But I didn't find this release adequate. Apple is not tracking me -- they are keeping a time-stamped list of nearby access points on my device, which effectively is a huge breadcrumb trail of everywhere I've been and when. Apple doesn't know it's me -- because the data is encrypted, which makes no sense at all. Whether data is encrypted or not is meaningless. Can I go to the Apple server logs and track incoming downloads and associate them with the data or not? I strongly suspect the answer is "yes". If not, that's great, but that wasn't described here. The killer omission? That Apple has been doing all of this -- which is at the very least controversial -- without informing the users in a manner in which they clearly understood it. The response we see is simply a reaction. The "bug" here is getting caught. I don't necessarily see anything nefarious at work, but I'm troubled with the idea that Apple was keeping a list of my whereabouts (the nearest access point, for those of you who are literally-minded) without my knowing it. That's a pretty serious breach of user trust, no matter how many times it was covered in the 47-page lawyered-up doc that nobody reads. But like I said, folks are willing to cut Apple lots of slack, and they deserve it. But hell if I'd want to see something like this happen again, from any manufacturer. I'm not so sure that vendors are getting the point.
- nutjob123 15y agoA huge hole in this press release is how apps use location information. An app can easily log a user's location and send it anywhere along with whatever other data the app has access to.
- X-Istence 15y agoSince you have to individually give each app permission you should go talk to the App developers. The apps use the location API that is available, and don't have direct access to the cache if that is what you are worried about.
- nutjob123 15y agoDirect access to the user location is much more useful than a list of nearby wifi and cell towers.
- dabeeeenster 15y ago"The iPhone is not logging your location. Rather, it’s maintaining a database of Wi-Fi hotspots and cell towers around your current location" So, it's logging your rough location...
- techiferous 15y agoThe intention matters. For example, you could look at my mail client and accuse me of constructing a database of Ruby developers in the Boston area.
- sachinag 15y agoHeh, that'd probably be worth in the neighborhood of $500K given how many openings there are for Rubyists in the Boston/Cambridge area.
- RyanKearney 15y ago>Apple is not tracking the location of your iPhone. Apple has never done so and has no plans to ever do so. Alright... >Apple is now collecting anonymous traffic data to build a crowd-sourced traffic database with the goal of providing iPhone users an improved traffic service in the next couple of years. ...... The collection of anonymous traffic data involves tracking your location to determine what road you're on and what speed you're going. They can't even get their story straight.
- famousactress 15y agoMeh. Everyone sucks at press releases this week (thinking about you, Sony). This just seems so much more bloodless, dispassionate, and frank than it ought to. It's obnoxiously contrary to write "The iPhone is not logging your location." I mean, really? That's just argumentative. My mom is gonna look at the location history visualizers people wrote and respond "Really, Apple? Cause this looks very much like log of my locations". Somebody at Apple's PR needs an ass-kicking. This ought to be a video with a short transcription from someone on the phone team (not Jobs) that just explains it without getting defensive of semantically tricky.
- geuis 15y agoSo now the usefulness of my phone gets degraded because Apple has to pander to people that don't understand what the actual situation is.
- jitbit 15y ago"You're not slaves - this collar just looks good on you!" (c) Strugatsky brothers, "The Doomed City" novel, 1988