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This criticism looks like "free as beer and I know better". 1. The old, mostly working thing waits your commit 2. That new thing can have some help too I rec

This criticism looks like "free as beer and I know better". 1. The old, mostly working thing waits your commit 2. That new thing can have some help too I recommend developers story about this "mostly working thing" (2014) [1]. It is quite fun and eye opening, he clearly knows his subject better than most of the comments. Wayland demo worked almost from day one. I've run it in 2010 [2]. But we need applications, that is migrating toolkits and this took 10 years. It is very toxic development culture, cancel culture, mob. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GWQh_DmDLKQ [2] https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=858020#p858020 https://bbs.archlinux.org/viewtopic.php?pid=858020#p858020

neurostimulant 6y ago
It took python community 10 years to migrate to python 3, and the migration process from python 2 to python 3, while tedious, is certainly a lot easier than porting a gui app from xorg to wayland. It could take some time until most app developers finally migrated their apps from xorg to wayland.
- znpy 6y ago
  worth noting that in the python 2 to 3 story, a migration path was mostly provided along with tools that tried to automatically refactor your code, the latest 2.x release was supported for nearly a decade, and there have been directions on how to temporarily write code to work on both python2 and python3.
  - sergeykish 6y ago
    Python 3 is only unusual in its failure. Perl6 Apocalypses [1] is wonderful. Python 3000 is pointless [2]. I've been Python developer at that time, the writing was on the wall. They have not provided migration path. PEP 414 "Complaint: This PEP may harm adoption of Python 3.2" [3], this is insane. Community voted with feet — they've stayed with Python 2 until clean migration path arrived. I've switched to Ruby and been happy since. Ruby 1.8.7 was supported for five years. You had to write Python 2 code and run 2to3, you had to live in the past or abandon it. [1] https://raku.org/archive/doc/apocalypse.html https://raku.org/archive/doc/apocalypse.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Python#Features https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Python#Features [3] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0414/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0414/
- sergeykish 6y ago
  Python 3 changed nothing * print is function * string is unicode by default Should have been clean and easy migration path # python 2 from __future__ import print_function print(u"foo") u"" # was u"" b"" # was "" But u"" was not supported in Python 3 until PEP 414 (python 3.3) [1]. That's four years [2]: Python 3.0.0 Dec. 3, 2008 Python 3.3.0 Sept. 29, 2012 Ruby string switched from codebytes to codepoints with encoding in 1.9. Ruby 2.0 switched default literal encoding to UTF-8 [3], timeline [4]: Ruby 1.8.7 2008-05-31 Ruby 1.9.1 2009-01-30 # first 1.9 Ruby 1.9.2 2010-08-18 # people already switched to 1.9 Ruby 2.0.0 2013-02-24 # first 2.0 Ruby 1.8.7-p352 2013-06-27 # last 1.8 Switch to Ruby 2.0 was even simpler than 1.9. How specifically Wayland harms you? I've opened GTK+ tutorial [5], compiled code, works both on X.Org and Wayland. How it is not clean migration path? And no, it is not XWayland which is additional migration path, I've removed it for this test: $ xterm xterm: Xt error: Can't open display: :1 [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0414/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0414/ [2] https://www.python.org/downloads/ https://www.python.org/downloads/ [3] https://medium.com/rubycademy/the-evolution-of-ruby-strings-from-1-8-to-2-5-8b2ed8f39fad https://medium.com/rubycademy/the-evolution-of-ruby-strings-... [4] https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/downloads/releases/ https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/downloads/releases/ [5] https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/gtk-getting-started.html https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/gtk-getting-started....
  - vnlab 6y ago
    > Python 3 changed nothing. Sorry, have you tried to maintain a C extension for both 2/3? Or a unicode heavy application? This is a silly statement, there's a reason that major packages took a decade to migrate. There are thousands of little details that are incompatible.
    - sergeykish 6y ago
      From user perspective. Gains. Nothing required big 2/3 change. Ruby and Go done it right — a series of small changes. Python 2.* had it right. The attitude of language developers was clearly stated in PEP 414 and 2to3 approach — no backward compatibility. That is nonsense, every python program had backward compatibility several minor versions deep. Select one issue and work on it. Unicode: # python prev u"" # or from __future__ import unicode_literals b"" vs # python next u"" b"" # or from __past__ import binary_literals Facts speak for itself, change was to big for users to overcome it, price was too high. I've lived through Ruby string changes, not a big deal. Wayland transition is nothing like Python 2/3. It is big but mostly invisible, XWayland runs X11 applications, toolkits hide implementation details, no X.Org deprecation.
badsectoracula 6y ago
> 1. The old, mostly working thing waits your commit From what i understand there are commits, just not releases. What is the point of committing if the maintainers do not bother to make a proper release that your work can be distributed to the users?
- sergeykish 6y ago
  Do you imply X.Org sabotaged? Issues fixed, system is stable and only maintainer stops it? You should notify disillusioned people who still commit to the repo [1]. [1] https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xserver/graphs/commit-activity https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xserver/graphs/commit-ac...
  - badsectoracula 6y ago
    I do not imply anything. The fact is that there haven't been any release for two years yet there is work apparently being done. So why aren't release being made?
    - sergeykish 6y ago
      I would expect issues are not fixed, system is not stable. > The primary development code repository can be found at: > https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver Quite a lot of issues.
      - account42 6y ago
        Ah yes, such classic X11 issues as Google Sign in not working [0]. Everyone knows that only Wayland is webscale enough for Google. [0] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1092 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1092
        sergeykish 6y ago
        Quick glance shows real issues > Xorg xserver above 1.20.8-3 crashes when using displaylink/evdi > Applications do not repaint in a timely fashion, resulting in screen corruption > xorg-x11-server quit unexpectedly on windows resize > x11-base/xorg-server-1.20.8-r1 crashes > Xorg crashes after unlocking with lightdm > Input events can be sent for disabled device, crashing GTK and mutter > when ubuntu runing Virtualbox, Ctal+Alt+F1 Ctal+Alt+F17 switch cause memleak > Server crash at startup > Delay and black screen when the screen is rotated. > xorg-server-1.20.9 crash on startup
krageon 6y ago
Saying Wayland is just non-functional for reasonable use-cases without significant user workarounds (usually going back a decade in execution and clarity) isn't toxic culture, it's the truth. Yes, people can work on what they want. By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad.
- sergeykish 6y ago
  I believe you assert that Wayland failure is that is not ready for end user. Strange point, it should have been burned 10 years ago than. I use X.Org, works perfectly in Arch Linux, some claim problems on in their distribution. It should be critique of that distribution. > Chromium is making its first shy bumbling steps towards actually working on Wayland And Firefox support is behind MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 flag. Clearly Wayland is in "early adopters" stage. Early adopters should not whine. > By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad. You've clearly not watched presentation. Some people know better than developer of that technology. It would be insult on my job. I've had enough people stating "technical debt is not real". > Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You Open source is nothing like Google deprecating its services, anyone can run code, but it is naive to expect free indefinite support. Truth is you are not going to maintain X.Org.
  - utxaa 6y ago
    this is all going to end in X12.
    - pzone 6y ago
      Wayland is X12.
    - sergeykish 6y ago
      you would preach but you would not contribute
      - ubercow13 6y ago

neurostimulant 6y ago

It took python community 10 years to migrate to python 3, and the migration process from python 2 to python 3, while tedious, is certainly a lot easier than porting a gui app from xorg to wayland. It could take some time until most app developers finally migrated their apps from xorg to wayland.

znpy 6y ago
worth noting that in the python 2 to 3 story, a migration path was mostly provided along with tools that tried to automatically refactor your code, the latest 2.x release was supported for nearly a decade, and there have been directions on how to temporarily write code to work on both python2 and python3.
- sergeykish 6y ago
  Python 3 is only unusual in its failure. Perl6 Apocalypses [1] is wonderful. Python 3000 is pointless [2]. I've been Python developer at that time, the writing was on the wall. They have not provided migration path. PEP 414 "Complaint: This PEP may harm adoption of Python 3.2" [3], this is insane. Community voted with feet — they've stayed with Python 2 until clean migration path arrived. I've switched to Ruby and been happy since. Ruby 1.8.7 was supported for five years. You had to write Python 2 code and run 2to3, you had to live in the past or abandon it. [1] https://raku.org/archive/doc/apocalypse.html https://raku.org/archive/doc/apocalypse.html [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Python#Features https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Python#Features [3] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0414/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0414/
sergeykish 6y ago
Python 3 changed nothing * print is function * string is unicode by default Should have been clean and easy migration path # python 2 from __future__ import print_function print(u"foo") u"" # was u"" b"" # was "" But u"" was not supported in Python 3 until PEP 414 (python 3.3) [1]. That's four years [2]: Python 3.0.0 Dec. 3, 2008 Python 3.3.0 Sept. 29, 2012 Ruby string switched from codebytes to codepoints with encoding in 1.9. Ruby 2.0 switched default literal encoding to UTF-8 [3], timeline [4]: Ruby 1.8.7 2008-05-31 Ruby 1.9.1 2009-01-30 # first 1.9 Ruby 1.9.2 2010-08-18 # people already switched to 1.9 Ruby 2.0.0 2013-02-24 # first 2.0 Ruby 1.8.7-p352 2013-06-27 # last 1.8 Switch to Ruby 2.0 was even simpler than 1.9. How specifically Wayland harms you? I've opened GTK+ tutorial [5], compiled code, works both on X.Org and Wayland. How it is not clean migration path? And no, it is not XWayland which is additional migration path, I've removed it for this test: $ xterm xterm: Xt error: Can't open display: :1 [1] https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0414/ https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0414/ [2] https://www.python.org/downloads/ https://www.python.org/downloads/ [3] https://medium.com/rubycademy/the-evolution-of-ruby-strings-from-1-8-to-2-5-8b2ed8f39fad https://medium.com/rubycademy/the-evolution-of-ruby-strings-... [4] https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/downloads/releases/ https://www.ruby-lang.org/en/downloads/releases/ [5] https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/gtk-getting-started.html https://developer.gnome.org/gtk3/stable/gtk-getting-started....
- vnlab 6y ago
  > Python 3 changed nothing. Sorry, have you tried to maintain a C extension for both 2/3? Or a unicode heavy application? This is a silly statement, there's a reason that major packages took a decade to migrate. There are thousands of little details that are incompatible.
  - sergeykish 6y ago
    From user perspective. Gains. Nothing required big 2/3 change. Ruby and Go done it right — a series of small changes. Python 2.* had it right. The attitude of language developers was clearly stated in PEP 414 and 2to3 approach — no backward compatibility. That is nonsense, every python program had backward compatibility several minor versions deep. Select one issue and work on it. Unicode: # python prev u"" # or from __future__ import unicode_literals b"" vs # python next u"" b"" # or from __past__ import binary_literals Facts speak for itself, change was to big for users to overcome it, price was too high. I've lived through Ruby string changes, not a big deal. Wayland transition is nothing like Python 2/3. It is big but mostly invisible, XWayland runs X11 applications, toolkits hide implementation details, no X.Org deprecation.

badsectoracula 6y ago

> 1. The old, mostly working thing waits your commit From what i understand there are commits, just not releases. What is the point of committing if the maintainers do not bother to make a proper release that your work can be distributed to the users?

sergeykish 6y ago
Do you imply X.Org sabotaged? Issues fixed, system is stable and only maintainer stops it? You should notify disillusioned people who still commit to the repo [1]. [1] https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xserver/graphs/commit-activity https://github.com/freedesktop/xorg-xserver/graphs/commit-ac...
- badsectoracula 6y ago
  I do not imply anything. The fact is that there haven't been any release for two years yet there is work apparently being done. So why aren't release being made?
  - sergeykish 6y ago
    I would expect issues are not fixed, system is not stable. > The primary development code repository can be found at: > https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver Quite a lot of issues.
    - account42 6y ago
      Ah yes, such classic X11 issues as Google Sign in not working [0]. Everyone knows that only Wayland is webscale enough for Google. [0] https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1092 https://gitlab.freedesktop.org/xorg/xserver/-/issues/1092
      - sergeykish 6y ago
        Quick glance shows real issues > Xorg xserver above 1.20.8-3 crashes when using displaylink/evdi > Applications do not repaint in a timely fashion, resulting in screen corruption > xorg-x11-server quit unexpectedly on windows resize > x11-base/xorg-server-1.20.8-r1 crashes > Xorg crashes after unlocking with lightdm > Input events can be sent for disabled device, crashing GTK and mutter > when ubuntu runing Virtualbox, Ctal+Alt+F1 Ctal+Alt+F17 switch cause memleak > Server crash at startup > Delay and black screen when the screen is rotated. > xorg-server-1.20.9 crash on startup

krageon 6y ago

Saying Wayland is just non-functional for reasonable use-cases without significant user workarounds (usually going back a decade in execution and clarity) isn't toxic culture, it's the truth. Yes, people can work on what they want. By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad.

sergeykish 6y ago
I believe you assert that Wayland failure is that is not ready for end user. Strange point, it should have been burned 10 years ago than. I use X.Org, works perfectly in Arch Linux, some claim problems on in their distribution. It should be critique of that distribution. > Chromium is making its first shy bumbling steps towards actually working on Wayland And Firefox support is behind MOZ_ENABLE_WAYLAND=1 flag. Clearly Wayland is in "early adopters" stage. Early adopters should not whine. > By the same logic, anyone can say that the direction they're taking is bad. You've clearly not watched presentation. Some people know better than developer of that technology. It would be insult on my job. I've had enough people stating "technical debt is not real". > Dear Google Cloud: Your Deprecation Policy Is Killing You Open source is nothing like Google deprecating its services, anyone can run code, but it is naive to expect free indefinite support. Truth is you are not going to maintain X.Org.
- utxaa 6y ago
  this is all going to end in X12.
  - pzone 6y ago
    Wayland is X12.
  - sergeykish 6y ago
    you would preach but you would not contribute
    - ubercow13 6y ago