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People should resist the temptation to defend this. 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Note that the vast ma

People should resist the temptation to defend this. 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Note that the vast majority of websites do not do this. Even big ones, such as Gmail, do not do this. 2. It does not speak well of the United States justice system if someone could be prosecuted for failure to block Iranian IPs. If this were required, the law should be clear. Otherwise, the US citizens deserve not to be in fear of prosecution. 3. Beyond IP-blocking, if the US government wants to require companies to go actively fishing for possible Iranian accounts, it should clearly codify this. Otherwise, companies should not have to fear prosecution. Summary: Gitlab should grow a pair, and Americans should ask themselves if this kind of legal uncertainty is desirable. Finally, legal effort to make websites inaccessible in Iran is entirely incompatible with being taken seriously when complaining about internet freedom in Iran. Note that this goes so far that the entire Google Cloud network blocks Iranian IPs, including any and all services and websites hosted there, including say resources that might provide valuable information to regime opponents.

Dunedan 6y ago
> 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Note that the vast majority of websites do not do this. Even big ones, such as Gmail, do not do this. I can tell you for certain that at least AWS and Atlassian do that. I learned that while surfing from an IP address which was mistakenly associated with being located in Iran. I only discovered that, because said websites weren't available. As I got that fixed quite fast afterwards I haven't done more browsing, that's why I can only name these two companies, but I'm pretty sure there are much more big companies doing such blocking based on IP address geolocation.
- r-w 6y ago
  > I learned that while surfing from an IP address which was mistakenly associated with being located in Iran. […] As I got that fixed quite fast afterwards I haven't done more browsing Tor?
  - Dunedan 6y ago
    That was just a regular internet connection. Not sure who messed up, but somehow the (dynamic) IP address block the ISP handed out was associated with Iran at that point in time.
lacker 6y ago
I don’t quite understand your summary. You say “GitLab should grow a pair”, but also that any infrastructure using Google Cloud will block Iranian IPs, so many companies will end up unusable from Iranian IPs regardless of their own opinions?
tinco 6y ago
> Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Do you have a source for this being over-compliance? Gitlab and Github are both actively sharing technology. It's not like Gitlab randomly decided "Hey let's block Iran today", obviously they have in house legal council who advised this course of action. With regards to your second point, everyone knows there are sanctions on Iran, it's been all over the news, and besides it's not like Gitlab is a random US citizen. They are a big company that is doing business overseas. It stands to reason that they should be aware of all laws and restrictions on international trade. I think it's the other way around, companies like Google and Facebook should grow some responsibility, it is not unreasonable to ask a company to "fish" for any accounts that conflict with any laws. Google and Facebook might give the impression that it's hard, but it's really not, it's only hard if you expect to make hundreds of dollars for every dollar that you invest acquiring your user base.
- lucb1e 6y ago
  > obviously they have in house legal council who advised this course of action From my experience at technology companies, this may indeed be the case, but I would also not underestimate the chance that someone made this decision without being advised to do so by an expensive legal council.
- jakear 6y ago
  Just FYI.. you perhaps meant counsel not council, though the meanings are similar enough it can be hard to tell.
  - tinco 6y ago
    Woops sorry you're totally right.
- miracle2k 6y ago
  Note that Github does not block Iranian IPs, nor Iranian accounts.
  - 6y ago
monokh 6y ago
> 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Note that the vast majority of websites do not do this. Even big ones, such as Gmail, do not do this. How do you define an iranian account? It's a complicated rule set there. Iranians not legally resident in Iran are exempt from the sanctions for example. I feel like IP bans are correct. If you're evading sanctions and internet censorship, you use whatever proxy and many do just this. Companies under these sanctions can write it off as not being the wiser and the users get to where they need to. Closing accounts with an IP login from Iran does feel like an unnecessary step here.
einpoklum 6y ago
> People should resist the temptation to defend this. You yourself are defending these ludicrous sanctions to some extent: > 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. So blocking Iranian IPs is fine? If you tell me "but GitLab is in the US, it has to" - it chose to base itself in the US only after apparently having previously being based elsewhere. With the way things stand, it is unreasonable for an online universal service provider, with individual user accounts, to operate from the US - similarly to how it should not operate out of China or Turkey (where restrictions are even stronger). Anyway... > Summary: Gitlab should grow a pair, and Americans should ask themselves if this kind of legal uncertainty is desirable. Most people in the US are barely aware of international affairs. This comes to mind from a few years back: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/0... > Finally, legal effort to make websites inaccessible in Iran is entirely incompatible with being taken seriously when complaining about internet freedom in Iran. You're mistaken. The US is not taken seriously on the merit of its arguments (and probably hasn't been for a couple of centuries already); it is taken seriously due to its ability to exert military and economic pressure.
- saurik 6y ago
  > > 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. > So blocking Iranian IPs is fine? The person you responded to, in the very sentence you quoted, said no, as this is "over-compliance".
- einpoklum 6y ago
  s/So blocking Iranian IPs/So blocking Iranian accounts/ in my previous message :-(
  - miracle2k 6y ago
    Im dedending them in no way, but I believe that IP blocks, especially wide reaching ones such as the Google Cloud block, are especially pernicious.
rootsudo 6y ago
>Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Very easy to set a geo blocker or conditional access policy and have full compliance. Exempting unique IP addresses becomes annoying, but if needed possible. It also cuts down on the other side of the house of security related incidents, which, if your company offers a product interested by people in that state, or, has news that can be taken in a dim light, prevents ddos and other annoying things. Not perfect, but one reason why there's 'over compliance'. > It does not speak well of the United States justice system if someone could be prosecuted for failure to block Iranian IPs. If this were required, the law should be clear. Otherwise, the US citizens deserve not to be in fear of prosecution. Cheap insurance, especially if you have no intentions of doing business from there.
momokoko 6y ago
This is dangerously inaccurate information. To those reading this, the US absolutely considers blocking Iranian IPs a required action under the sanctions. The person posting this could get you in serious legal trouble. With that said, most companies do not start blocking these IPs until they are either contacted by US authorities and asked to comply or via the recommendations of an audit by an outside private company. Please do not trust what this person is saying. Remember, violating sanctions can get you a prison sentence, not just a fine.
- miracle2k 6y ago
  Prominent examples disagree with you. Gmail for example. They even allow accounts! Now maybe Google wants to argue that Gmail qualifies for the personal communication tools exception. But wait, GitHub doesn't block Iranian IPs either! They allow free accounts as well! Call in the feds! Is there any government guidance or legal precedent that says IP blocking is required? There is not. Any evidence that the government warned companies privately? And is this the way things are done in the US? Private threats while the citizenry at large is left on the dark about what the law requires? A Gitlab executive facing prison time over failure to block Iranian IPs would be unjust even with clear guidance, on the import of the offense alone. But given the lack of legal clarity, this would be banana republic stuff. One of my main points here is, Americans should not accept such a state of affairs. It's bad enough that there is so much over compliance, it's disappointing to see people running to normalize the idea that fear of jail time in the face of legal uncertainty is a way to run a country.
  - DetroitThrow 6y ago
    >Prominent examples disagree with you. Gmail for example. They even allow accounts! Now maybe Google wants to argue that Gmail qualifies for the personal communication tools exception. But wait, GitHub doesn't block Iranian IPs either! They allow free accounts as well! Call in the feds! Both Google and Github block accounts by Iranian IPs, and this is easily verifiable if you know anyone who lives in Iran and can access a website - attempting to use Github functionality for anything other than viewing repositories right now is currently blocked, and enterprise accounts are entirely blocked. Personal Gmail accounts are the exception to Google services available in Iran, and some functionality is also blocked by IP - if you live in Iran currently you might know that almost all other Google services and enterprise accounts are outright blocked by IP too: https://support.google.com/a/thread/4870330?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/thread/4870330?hl=en https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-policy/github-and-trade-controls https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-... Here is a non-comprehensive list of sites that block Iranian IPs, most outright disallowing access to websites: https://gist.github.com/alibo/dfd7c258bcc44a0e8c9f7c5bfd3bd2c3 https://gist.github.com/alibo/dfd7c258bcc44a0e8c9f7c5bfd3bd2... Please do not pay attention to this fellow, he is spreading legal misinformation that is dangerous.
whoisjuan 6y ago
Come on dude. You are not a lawyer and your assessment of the situation clearly goes against federal law. You can personally feel bad about this but if the government tells you to comply with this and your vendors tell you to comply with this (so they can comply with federal law) then there's absolutely zero things you can do.
DetroitThrow 6y ago
>Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Note that the vast majority of websites do not do this. Even big ones, such as Gmail, do not do this. I wish dang would ban users for blatant misinformation such as this. The number of people who end up believing these lies as truth probably outweighs the benefit of any civil discussion it could lead to: in the US, it's now obvious that "alternative facts" has led to a breakdown of civil discussion, after all.
- ztjio 6y ago
  I sympathize with your position and even agree in the context of other types of sites, but, what really needs to happen here is YC users need to learn that nothing in these comment threads is authoritative. This is the land of Dunning-Kruger and nobody should ever directly believe anything here, no matter how trustworthy it seems. Always verify. If effort was put into censoring bad information, that might instill a false sense of trust that could never be met by mods. Instead, effort should be put into making sure everyone knows to be skeptical. That, to me, seems more in line with how this site operates. If people want to be believed, they should cite authoritative sources.
- miracle2k 6y ago
  You are quoting a very specific claim. That big providers such as Gmail and GitHub do not block Iranian IPs. Are you saying they do?
  - DetroitThrow 6y ago
    >You are quoting a very specific claim. That big providers such as Gmail and GitHub do not block Iranian IPs. Are you saying they do? Yes I am saying they block accounts by Iranian IPs, and this is easily verifiable if you know anyone who lives in Iran and can access a website - attempting to use Github functionality for anything other than viewing repositories right now is currently blocked, and enterprise accounts are entirely blocked. Personal Gmail accounts are the exception to Google services available in Iran, and some functionality is also blocked by IP - if you live in Iran currently you might know that almost all other Google services and enterprise accounts are outright blocked by IPs too: https://support.google.com/a/thread/4870330?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/thread/4870330?hl=en https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-policy/github-and-trade-controls https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-... Here is a non-comprehensive list of sites that block Iranian IPs, most outright disallowing access to websites: https://gist.github.com/alibo/dfd7c258bcc44a0e8c9f7c5bfd3bd2c3 https://gist.github.com/alibo/dfd7c258bcc44a0e8c9f7c5bfd3bd2... Please do not spread misinformation.
stevefan1999 6y ago
It’s fear all the time. Fear is the biggest weapon for all kind of states. That’s why some of us might have self-censorship because we fear that we will get penalised hard if we do not play by the rule.
- jessaustin 6y ago
  Just look here on this page. Lots of people who would decry censorship and cruelty on the part of some nations, are here arguing in support of the same qualities of the nation that could do the most harm to them.

Dunedan 6y ago

> 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Note that the vast majority of websites do not do this. Even big ones, such as Gmail, do not do this. I can tell you for certain that at least AWS and Atlassian do that. I learned that while surfing from an IP address which was mistakenly associated with being located in Iran. I only discovered that, because said websites weren't available. As I got that fixed quite fast afterwards I haven't done more browsing, that's why I can only name these two companies, but I'm pretty sure there are much more big companies doing such blocking based on IP address geolocation.

r-w 6y ago
> I learned that while surfing from an IP address which was mistakenly associated with being located in Iran. […] As I got that fixed quite fast afterwards I haven't done more browsing Tor?
- Dunedan 6y ago
  That was just a regular internet connection. Not sure who messed up, but somehow the (dynamic) IP address block the ISP handed out was associated with Iran at that point in time.

lacker 6y ago

I don’t quite understand your summary. You say “GitLab should grow a pair”, but also that any infrastructure using Google Cloud will block Iranian IPs, so many companies will end up unusable from Iranian IPs regardless of their own opinions?

tinco 6y ago

> Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Do you have a source for this being over-compliance? Gitlab and Github are both actively sharing technology. It's not like Gitlab randomly decided "Hey let's block Iran today", obviously they have in house legal council who advised this course of action. With regards to your second point, everyone knows there are sanctions on Iran, it's been all over the news, and besides it's not like Gitlab is a random US citizen. They are a big company that is doing business overseas. It stands to reason that they should be aware of all laws and restrictions on international trade. I think it's the other way around, companies like Google and Facebook should grow some responsibility, it is not unreasonable to ask a company to "fish" for any accounts that conflict with any laws. Google and Facebook might give the impression that it's hard, but it's really not, it's only hard if you expect to make hundreds of dollars for every dollar that you invest acquiring your user base.

lucb1e 6y ago
> obviously they have in house legal council who advised this course of action From my experience at technology companies, this may indeed be the case, but I would also not underestimate the chance that someone made this decision without being advised to do so by an expensive legal council.
jakear 6y ago
Just FYI.. you perhaps meant counsel not council, though the meanings are similar enough it can be hard to tell.
- tinco 6y ago
  Woops sorry you're totally right.
miracle2k 6y ago
Note that Github does not block Iranian IPs, nor Iranian accounts.
- 6y ago

monokh 6y ago

> 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Note that the vast majority of websites do not do this. Even big ones, such as Gmail, do not do this. How do you define an iranian account? It's a complicated rule set there. Iranians not legally resident in Iran are exempt from the sanctions for example. I feel like IP bans are correct. If you're evading sanctions and internet censorship, you use whatever proxy and many do just this. Companies under these sanctions can write it off as not being the wiser and the users get to where they need to. Closing accounts with an IP login from Iran does feel like an unnecessary step here.

einpoklum 6y ago

> People should resist the temptation to defend this. You yourself are defending these ludicrous sanctions to some extent: > 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. So blocking Iranian IPs is fine? If you tell me "but GitLab is in the US, it has to" - it chose to base itself in the US only after apparently having previously being based elsewhere. With the way things stand, it is unreasonable for an online universal service provider, with individual user accounts, to operate from the US - similarly to how it should not operate out of China or Turkey (where restrictions are even stronger). Anyway... > Summary: Gitlab should grow a pair, and Americans should ask themselves if this kind of legal uncertainty is desirable. Most people in the US are barely aware of international affairs. This comes to mind from a few years back: https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/07/the-less-americans-know-about-ukraines-location-the-more-they-want-u-s-to-intervene/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/monkey-cage/wp/2014/04/0... > Finally, legal effort to make websites inaccessible in Iran is entirely incompatible with being taken seriously when complaining about internet freedom in Iran. You're mistaken. The US is not taken seriously on the merit of its arguments (and probably hasn't been for a couple of centuries already); it is taken seriously due to its ability to exert military and economic pressure.

saurik 6y ago
> > 1. Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. > So blocking Iranian IPs is fine? The person you responded to, in the very sentence you quoted, said no, as this is "over-compliance".
einpoklum 6y ago
s/So blocking Iranian IPs/So blocking Iranian accounts/ in my previous message :-(
- miracle2k 6y ago
  Im dedending them in no way, but I believe that IP blocks, especially wide reaching ones such as the Google Cloud block, are especially pernicious.

rootsudo 6y ago

>Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Very easy to set a geo blocker or conditional access policy and have full compliance. Exempting unique IP addresses becomes annoying, but if needed possible. It also cuts down on the other side of the house of security related incidents, which, if your company offers a product interested by people in that state, or, has news that can be taken in a dim light, prevents ddos and other annoying things. Not perfect, but one reason why there's 'over compliance'. > It does not speak well of the United States justice system if someone could be prosecuted for failure to block Iranian IPs. If this were required, the law should be clear. Otherwise, the US citizens deserve not to be in fear of prosecution. Cheap insurance, especially if you have no intentions of doing business from there.

momokoko 6y ago

This is dangerously inaccurate information. To those reading this, the US absolutely considers blocking Iranian IPs a required action under the sanctions. The person posting this could get you in serious legal trouble. With that said, most companies do not start blocking these IPs until they are either contacted by US authorities and asked to comply or via the recommendations of an audit by an outside private company. Please do not trust what this person is saying. Remember, violating sanctions can get you a prison sentence, not just a fine.

miracle2k 6y ago
Prominent examples disagree with you. Gmail for example. They even allow accounts! Now maybe Google wants to argue that Gmail qualifies for the personal communication tools exception. But wait, GitHub doesn't block Iranian IPs either! They allow free accounts as well! Call in the feds! Is there any government guidance or legal precedent that says IP blocking is required? There is not. Any evidence that the government warned companies privately? And is this the way things are done in the US? Private threats while the citizenry at large is left on the dark about what the law requires? A Gitlab executive facing prison time over failure to block Iranian IPs would be unjust even with clear guidance, on the import of the offense alone. But given the lack of legal clarity, this would be banana republic stuff. One of my main points here is, Americans should not accept such a state of affairs. It's bad enough that there is so much over compliance, it's disappointing to see people running to normalize the idea that fear of jail time in the face of legal uncertainty is a way to run a country.
- DetroitThrow 6y ago
  >Prominent examples disagree with you. Gmail for example. They even allow accounts! Now maybe Google wants to argue that Gmail qualifies for the personal communication tools exception. But wait, GitHub doesn't block Iranian IPs either! They allow free accounts as well! Call in the feds! Both Google and Github block accounts by Iranian IPs, and this is easily verifiable if you know anyone who lives in Iran and can access a website - attempting to use Github functionality for anything other than viewing repositories right now is currently blocked, and enterprise accounts are entirely blocked. Personal Gmail accounts are the exception to Google services available in Iran, and some functionality is also blocked by IP - if you live in Iran currently you might know that almost all other Google services and enterprise accounts are outright blocked by IP too: https://support.google.com/a/thread/4870330?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/thread/4870330?hl=en https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-policy/github-and-trade-controls https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-... Here is a non-comprehensive list of sites that block Iranian IPs, most outright disallowing access to websites: https://gist.github.com/alibo/dfd7c258bcc44a0e8c9f7c5bfd3bd2c3 https://gist.github.com/alibo/dfd7c258bcc44a0e8c9f7c5bfd3bd2... Please do not pay attention to this fellow, he is spreading legal misinformation that is dangerous.

whoisjuan 6y ago

Come on dude. You are not a lawyer and your assessment of the situation clearly goes against federal law. You can personally feel bad about this but if the government tells you to comply with this and your vendors tell you to comply with this (so they can comply with federal law) then there's absolutely zero things you can do.

DetroitThrow 6y ago

>Blocking Iranian IPs, as opposed to accounts, is almost certainly over-compliance. Note that the vast majority of websites do not do this. Even big ones, such as Gmail, do not do this. I wish dang would ban users for blatant misinformation such as this. The number of people who end up believing these lies as truth probably outweighs the benefit of any civil discussion it could lead to: in the US, it's now obvious that "alternative facts" has led to a breakdown of civil discussion, after all.

ztjio 6y ago
I sympathize with your position and even agree in the context of other types of sites, but, what really needs to happen here is YC users need to learn that nothing in these comment threads is authoritative. This is the land of Dunning-Kruger and nobody should ever directly believe anything here, no matter how trustworthy it seems. Always verify. If effort was put into censoring bad information, that might instill a false sense of trust that could never be met by mods. Instead, effort should be put into making sure everyone knows to be skeptical. That, to me, seems more in line with how this site operates. If people want to be believed, they should cite authoritative sources.
miracle2k 6y ago
You are quoting a very specific claim. That big providers such as Gmail and GitHub do not block Iranian IPs. Are you saying they do?
- DetroitThrow 6y ago
  >You are quoting a very specific claim. That big providers such as Gmail and GitHub do not block Iranian IPs. Are you saying they do? Yes I am saying they block accounts by Iranian IPs, and this is easily verifiable if you know anyone who lives in Iran and can access a website - attempting to use Github functionality for anything other than viewing repositories right now is currently blocked, and enterprise accounts are entirely blocked. Personal Gmail accounts are the exception to Google services available in Iran, and some functionality is also blocked by IP - if you live in Iran currently you might know that almost all other Google services and enterprise accounts are outright blocked by IPs too: https://support.google.com/a/thread/4870330?hl=en https://support.google.com/a/thread/4870330?hl=en https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-policy/github-and-trade-controls https://docs.github.com/en/free-pro-team@latest/github/site-... Here is a non-comprehensive list of sites that block Iranian IPs, most outright disallowing access to websites: https://gist.github.com/alibo/dfd7c258bcc44a0e8c9f7c5bfd3bd2c3 https://gist.github.com/alibo/dfd7c258bcc44a0e8c9f7c5bfd3bd2... Please do not spread misinformation.

stevefan1999 6y ago

It’s fear all the time. Fear is the biggest weapon for all kind of states. That’s why some of us might have self-censorship because we fear that we will get penalised hard if we do not play by the rule.

jessaustin 6y ago
Just look here on this page. Lots of people who would decry censorship and cruelty on the part of some nations, are here arguing in support of the same qualities of the nation that could do the most harm to them.