7 ms·

I had bought the hardcover when it first came out, but always wanted the CDROM version when I had heard of it. It is a shame it hasn't made it online somewhere

I had bought the hardcover when it first came out, but always wanted the CDROM version when I had heard of it. It is a shame it hasn't made it online somewhere convenient. I believe it remains one of the seminal works in SF, and holds up pretty well today. At the time of publishing, Vinge was one of the very few people who had a good grasp of the limits of computation and molecular nanotechnology were. Up until that point in mainstream SF writing, highly advanced technology was more akin to magic, even in "hard" SF. Aside from FTL tech (necessary for a novel with galactic scope), and the Zones of Thought (an artifice to help tell stories centering on people), Vinge sticks close to what is physically possible. The prologue alone is packed with realistic details that was exceptional for its time.

rsync 6y ago
"I believe it remains one of the seminal works in SF, and holds up pretty well today." I enjoyed tremendously _A Deepness in the Sky_ and continue to find the ideas interesting and thought-provoking - especially the localizer networks, etc. Based on that I read _Fire Upon the Deep_ and found it very enjoyable and interesting throughout, but then deeply disappointing at the end. I was expecting explanations and resolutions of the deep background events and actors that were shaping the story and none were given.
- jerf 6y ago
  "then deeply disappointing at the end. I was expecting explanations and resolutions of the deep background events and actors that were shaping the story and none were given." If you read carefully, and make a couple of reasonable deductions, I think you can come to mostly satisfactory conclusions. There's room for a couple of different interpretations of what's in the center of the galaxy, but not all that many, really.
  - vintagedave 6y ago
    Could you explain your own deductions, please? What are the possible interpretations? I have read both novels, but on that reading do not feel I could be sure of understanding what's at the galactic center at all. In fact, I recall feeling puzzled and wishing it was explained, much like the parent poster. I'd love to hear some deductions and to find out what hints in the book I missed. Edit: I see you also wrote this comment - very informative, thanks! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24869467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24869467
owenversteeg 6y ago
That's one of the main reasons why I love this book so much, that it sounds realistic. I'll be honest, I always struggled with suspension of disbelief with lots of SF. Does anyone know other SF books that are similar (aka believable?)
- tialaramex 6y ago
  What people find "believable" or "realistic" will vary. Within the genre of Science Fiction there is a sub-genre of Hard Science Fiction in which it's considered more important that it could actually work. Fire Upon The Deep probably wouldn't generally be considered at all Hard because it has Faster-than-Light travel, which is one of the things you generally would rule out of Hard SF because of how conservation rules in Physics work, if you can do FtL then you can do time travel (because space and time being the same kind of thing), and then what's your story? "The Martian" a novel subsequently made into a movie is pretty realistic, turns out the setup (a storm on Mars separates Mark from the rest of the crew) is the least realistic part of that entire story. If that's a bit too realistic, some of Liu Cixin's shorts are pretty wild while remaining down to earth about what's practical. "The Wandering Earth" for example. Greg Egan is very Hard, but you may find you think Greg's technically possible stuff seems harder to believe than faster-than-light travel which isn't possible at all. The Clockwork Rocket couldn't happen here, but it's set in a universe with a different dimensional symmetry, the Amalgam stuff is set in this universe, but with a society far more advanced than ours. But then if it turns out "realistic"/ "believable" counts like Star Wars style laser blasters and stuff then I dunno, lots of things, maybe you'd like Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch stuff, (or indeed Iain M Banks' Culture novels) which aren't Hard at all.
  - rsynnott 6y ago
    > Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch stuff This one follows a common pattern where it has a single piece of magic (in this case FTL travel via magical portals) and everything else is reasonably hard. Another example would be pretty much anything by Peter Hamilton (also an aficionado of magical portals, sometimes with trains). Banks also has a magical FTL portal novel, actually (The Algebraist); they're quite popular.
JdeBP 6y ago
It did make it on-line. * https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/pbuT5Xty9QY/m/5AzkJGGfmcgJ https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/pbuT5Xty9Q...
- dmd 6y ago
  It doesn't appear to be available anywhere any more, though. I just requested it via the EFF donation, though (I would guess quite a few people did today after seeing this!), and maybe Brad would be amenable to it going on archive.org?
  - sbisson 6y ago
    That would be up to Vernor.
    - handol 6y ago
      It's probably also up to a publisher.
ghaff 6y ago
Definitely near the top of my list. The sequel wasn't in the same class but his "True Names" novella is seminal cyberpunk although it doesn't have all of Gibson's trappings. (Varley's "Press Enter" is in a similar vein and has been more anthologized; they're both really good.)
Retric 6y ago
I find it odd that people tend to think that way about A Fire Upon the Deep. I rank it as some of the softest science fiction I have ever read. It’s a decent story, but falls heavily into the science as magic trap. Contrast it with say The Cold Equations which as I recall has FTL and everything else is bog standard physics and yet it was still criticized as unrealistic from an engendering standpoint. You can’t make that kind of criticism of A Fire Upon the Deep because everything is handwaved.
- ddevault 6y ago
  As far as I can tell, it rates a 4 on Mohs scale, i.e. "one big lie" - the idea that the speed of light varies with the distance from the center of the galaxy.
  - Retric 6y ago
    FTL alone is already at “one big lie” stage, it’s got plenty of other issues with established physics and arguably worse with consistency. Personally I would argue for rank 1, but I am somewhat of a curmudgeon about this stuff.
  - jerf 6y ago
    It's not that the speed of light varies, it's that the "amount of computation" you can do varies. As you approach the center of the galaxy even the relatively efficient human brain starts to break down. The speed of light connection is that FTL requires so much computation that it breaks at a certain point relatively far out from the center. Other technologies have similar issues. However, if you read carefully, and consider some of the consequences, it becomes clear that this is not a natural rule of the universe, but something technological, created by presumably one of the first civilizations to become highly technological as a defense against what would otherwise be a fairly vicious universe with constant high-tech civilizations fighting each other with frightfully powerful weapons, and perhaps a hint of compassion towards the not-yet-high-tech civilizations. That's why it can be manipulated with certain keys, in ways that would not be possible (lots of FTL signalling) if the Zones were truly a fundamental rule of the universe. (Notice also how the super-high-tech civilizations don't understand how the Zones work or why they exist, which if there were purely natural seems unlikely.) The Powers tend to last 10 years probably because that's how long it takes to either be accepted by the highly advanced civilization(s) that live in the galactic cores, or how long it takes to work out how to move there despite the Zones being in the way, or both. This creates an entrance gate against things like the main threat of the novel getting into your high-tech civ. I don't deny I'm extrapolating a bit, but there's a lot of hints, especially if you add A Deepness in the Sky to the mix. Pham was probably sent from this central civ to fight A Fire Upon the Deep's main threat, if you read where he came from. The entire planet of A Deepness in the Sky is clearly from a super-high tech civ far beyond what Earth's depth could support, but it's from closer to the galaxy's core, not farther, which is why Pham went in to the galaxy's core after that story rather than out looking for more intelligent life. He in fact found it, or it found him, if you prefer. Once you see there's a probably-even-beyond-Transcend civilization living under the Zones of Thought it mostly comes together.

rsync 6y ago

"I believe it remains one of the seminal works in SF, and holds up pretty well today." I enjoyed tremendously _A Deepness in the Sky_ and continue to find the ideas interesting and thought-provoking - especially the localizer networks, etc. Based on that I read _Fire Upon the Deep_ and found it very enjoyable and interesting throughout, but then deeply disappointing at the end. I was expecting explanations and resolutions of the deep background events and actors that were shaping the story and none were given.

jerf 6y ago
"then deeply disappointing at the end. I was expecting explanations and resolutions of the deep background events and actors that were shaping the story and none were given." If you read carefully, and make a couple of reasonable deductions, I think you can come to mostly satisfactory conclusions. There's room for a couple of different interpretations of what's in the center of the galaxy, but not all that many, really.
- vintagedave 6y ago
  Could you explain your own deductions, please? What are the possible interpretations? I have read both novels, but on that reading do not feel I could be sure of understanding what's at the galactic center at all. In fact, I recall feeling puzzled and wishing it was explained, much like the parent poster. I'd love to hear some deductions and to find out what hints in the book I missed. Edit: I see you also wrote this comment - very informative, thanks! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24869467 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24869467

owenversteeg 6y ago

That's one of the main reasons why I love this book so much, that it sounds realistic. I'll be honest, I always struggled with suspension of disbelief with lots of SF. Does anyone know other SF books that are similar (aka believable?)

tialaramex 6y ago
What people find "believable" or "realistic" will vary. Within the genre of Science Fiction there is a sub-genre of Hard Science Fiction in which it's considered more important that it could actually work. Fire Upon The Deep probably wouldn't generally be considered at all Hard because it has Faster-than-Light travel, which is one of the things you generally would rule out of Hard SF because of how conservation rules in Physics work, if you can do FtL then you can do time travel (because space and time being the same kind of thing), and then what's your story? "The Martian" a novel subsequently made into a movie is pretty realistic, turns out the setup (a storm on Mars separates Mark from the rest of the crew) is the least realistic part of that entire story. If that's a bit too realistic, some of Liu Cixin's shorts are pretty wild while remaining down to earth about what's practical. "The Wandering Earth" for example. Greg Egan is very Hard, but you may find you think Greg's technically possible stuff seems harder to believe than faster-than-light travel which isn't possible at all. The Clockwork Rocket couldn't happen here, but it's set in a universe with a different dimensional symmetry, the Amalgam stuff is set in this universe, but with a society far more advanced than ours. But then if it turns out "realistic"/ "believable" counts like Star Wars style laser blasters and stuff then I dunno, lots of things, maybe you'd like Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch stuff, (or indeed Iain M Banks' Culture novels) which aren't Hard at all.
- rsynnott 6y ago
  > Ann Leckie's Imperial Radch stuff This one follows a common pattern where it has a single piece of magic (in this case FTL travel via magical portals) and everything else is reasonably hard. Another example would be pretty much anything by Peter Hamilton (also an aficionado of magical portals, sometimes with trains). Banks also has a magical FTL portal novel, actually (The Algebraist); they're quite popular.

JdeBP 6y ago

It did make it on-line. * https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/pbuT5Xty9QY/m/5AzkJGGfmcgJ https://groups.google.com/g/rec.arts.sf.written/c/pbuT5Xty9Q...

dmd 6y ago
It doesn't appear to be available anywhere any more, though. I just requested it via the EFF donation, though (I would guess quite a few people did today after seeing this!), and maybe Brad would be amenable to it going on archive.org?
- sbisson 6y ago
  That would be up to Vernor.
  - handol 6y ago
    It's probably also up to a publisher.

ghaff 6y ago

Definitely near the top of my list. The sequel wasn't in the same class but his "True Names" novella is seminal cyberpunk although it doesn't have all of Gibson's trappings. (Varley's "Press Enter" is in a similar vein and has been more anthologized; they're both really good.)

Retric 6y ago

I find it odd that people tend to think that way about A Fire Upon the Deep. I rank it as some of the softest science fiction I have ever read. It’s a decent story, but falls heavily into the science as magic trap. Contrast it with say The Cold Equations which as I recall has FTL and everything else is bog standard physics and yet it was still criticized as unrealistic from an engendering standpoint. You can’t make that kind of criticism of A Fire Upon the Deep because everything is handwaved.

ddevault 6y ago
As far as I can tell, it rates a 4 on Mohs scale, i.e. "one big lie" - the idea that the speed of light varies with the distance from the center of the galaxy.
- Retric 6y ago
  FTL alone is already at “one big lie” stage, it’s got plenty of other issues with established physics and arguably worse with consistency. Personally I would argue for rank 1, but I am somewhat of a curmudgeon about this stuff.
- jerf 6y ago
  It's not that the speed of light varies, it's that the "amount of computation" you can do varies. As you approach the center of the galaxy even the relatively efficient human brain starts to break down. The speed of light connection is that FTL requires so much computation that it breaks at a certain point relatively far out from the center. Other technologies have similar issues. However, if you read carefully, and consider some of the consequences, it becomes clear that this is not a natural rule of the universe, but something technological, created by presumably one of the first civilizations to become highly technological as a defense against what would otherwise be a fairly vicious universe with constant high-tech civilizations fighting each other with frightfully powerful weapons, and perhaps a hint of compassion towards the not-yet-high-tech civilizations. That's why it can be manipulated with certain keys, in ways that would not be possible (lots of FTL signalling) if the Zones were truly a fundamental rule of the universe. (Notice also how the super-high-tech civilizations don't understand how the Zones work or why they exist, which if there were purely natural seems unlikely.) The Powers tend to last 10 years probably because that's how long it takes to either be accepted by the highly advanced civilization(s) that live in the galactic cores, or how long it takes to work out how to move there despite the Zones being in the way, or both. This creates an entrance gate against things like the main threat of the novel getting into your high-tech civ. I don't deny I'm extrapolating a bit, but there's a lot of hints, especially if you add A Deepness in the Sky to the mix. Pham was probably sent from this central civ to fight A Fire Upon the Deep's main threat, if you read where he came from. The entire planet of A Deepness in the Sky is clearly from a super-high tech civ far beyond what Earth's depth could support, but it's from closer to the galaxy's core, not farther, which is why Pham went in to the galaxy's core after that story rather than out looking for more intelligent life. He in fact found it, or it found him, if you prefer. Once you see there's a probably-even-beyond-Transcend civilization living under the Zones of Thought it mostly comes together.