11 ms·

MuditaOS: An open-source, e-ink mobile OS

211 points by ajeetdsouza 6y ago

bebna 6y ago
I still don't get it. If you wanna do digital detox and still need a phone, get an used Motorola F3. - It can't do more than talk and same very bare texting (Mudita already got a calendar, something that wants to get your attention and don't get me started on that mediation timer) - costs almost nothing (Mudita Pure costs >300) - flat and small, therefore easy to put away in any bag or pouch and forget - doesn't has any big display where you need to take care of it - upcycles an old phone for what is likely a, perhaps repeating, but still temporary use case
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  I interpret this as a phone that can do the basics like agenda and such, but does them in an unintrusive way, and givesyou full control over when and how it's allowed to interrupt you. If so, that would definitely change the dynamics between me and my phone. Basically all apps on ios / android (modulo some positive exceptions) are out to grab my attention all the time, and the OSs make it quite hard to really control that. I guess that would be more sustainable than trying to disconnect entirely. Besides this, the link here is actually the OS, so this is actually OT.
  - bebna 6y ago
    That os is only for that phone. There is a quick setting with a bar inside a circle, which shuts of any attention grabbers. If you still need some of those, you can allow them in the app-details notifications settings. Back on blackberry you controlled that similarly by defining important contacts, who are allowed to ignore mute. Even the palm pre had that functionality.
  - pjmlp 6y ago
    I could already do that on my J2ME and Symbian phones.
- vinay427 6y ago
  Sort of off-topic, but for digital detox I've found that a phone that doesn't at least support WhatsApp, Signal, and a few other Android apps would be useless as a phone for me. I can't remember the last time I've used my phone for something that doesn't involve data, so I would rather detox temporarily with no phone at all. In case anyone has any suggestions: For a more sustainable long-term detox to avoid extensive screen time, I'm trying to find a very minimal Android device that can preferably be de-Googled (with Lineage or related Roms) but definitely at least supports a few basic Android applications but isn't very comfortable to use for just browsing. It's surprisingly difficult to find a small-display Android device these days...
  - bebna 6y ago
    I tried it with an S3 mini, u could get a reasonably up to date version of android on it for current versions of whatsapp and co, but most of them had significant problems, especially with the hardware support. There was the Nokia 1, don't know how well available that still is. otherwise the kaios devices, I think they do have WhatsApp, but can't remember about the others. Therefore for everyday I just setup my phone to not annoy me and when I want to shut off completely, I switch to the F3, which gets thrown deep into the bag, just as an emergency thingy next to the basic first aid kit and I don't see it again until I got to go to work.
  - spurgu 6y ago
    Agreed. Calls and SMS[0] are the least used features for me personally. Messaging apps would be required, unless you're going completely off the grid. I think the best/simplest digital detox method is turning off most notifications - nowadays there are quite granular controls. If you want to go completely off the grid while keeping a phone for emergencies, any dumbphone would do. [0] If you don't count receiving 2FA, delivery confirmations etc.
  - ForHackernews 6y ago
    Maybe check out some of the older devices that are available with the /e/ OS? (de-googled android) https://esolutions.shop/ https://esolutions.shop/
  - 6y ago
- zeckalpha 6y ago
  Is there still 2G coverage? My impression is they are taking down 3G endpoints now.
jack_riminton 6y ago
I do like the premise but I would've expected a few more specs; battery life? water and drop resistance? It's clear they've spent a lot of time on the form (over self-indulgently perhaps) but I hope it's not at the expense of function
- okanesen 6y ago
  I tried to look for it too and found it buried on a subpage[0], though the relevant information seems to be: * Battery: ~1600mAh * Water resistance: IP54 [0]: https://mudita.com/products/pure/specs/ https://mudita.com/products/pure/specs/
  - jack_riminton 6y ago
    Good find, thanks
fahrradflucht 6y ago
I don't think going back to SMS and GSM based phone calls is really a viable option. They are just too insecure. You can say a lot of things about mobile internet, but at least it made end-to-end encrypted communication the norm.
- black_puppydog 6y ago
  The thing has Bluetooth though. I'm seriously considering getting one to see if I can get scuttlebutt running on it :D That would be a realnice fit actually. Mostly disconnected, synced with other devices when physically close, private messages end to end encrypted, and the full OS/app stack being built to not be attention-hogging. :P
  - nefitty 6y ago
    What is scuttlebutt?
    - taneq 6y ago
      Rumours.
    - m-p-3 6y ago
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Scuttlebutt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Scuttlebutt
- ralph87 6y ago
  This idea is common but a strange one at least to me. Going back to GSM would of course be a regression due to their repeatedly broken crypto, but modern LTE networks have many desirable properties absent from Internet-based messaging. Perhaps it matters less to a US user, but as a European the fact an intra-country communication need not traverse any border nor be observable by any non-domestic entity is a huge deal for me, due to much stronger data protection laws in these parts covering both message content and metadata Then there is the trustworthiness of the communication medium itself. WhatsApp is being advocated in this thread, but WhatsApp is a massive chunk of unaudited code running on your handset that is published by an advertising company, code that by design steals your phonebook without telling you every time you run it. At least in the UK, telecom providers generally act for the most part as commodity infrastructure, we don't seem to have quite as many scummy behaviours as are reported in the US. Both approaches require a central counterparty with either absolute trust to protect your cleartext message in transit, or provide otherwise unaudited code claiming to protect the same. The bottom line for me is probably who gets to keep the metadata, a US advertising company or a local telco. I am certainly happier with the latter.
black_puppydog 6y ago
A bit sad to see that you have to fill out a typeform to get access to the code. I'm sure if it is actually FOSS (GPL or MIT or such) then there will be public forks on gitlab or whatnot. Looks cool though. Might be viable to adapt to different screen sizes too? I know the remarkable is already hackable, but can't hurt to have competing UI concepts there, right ? :)
- tsar_nikolai 6y ago
  Source seems to be on GitHub in a private repo from this [0] account, according to this [1] image on the submission page [0] https://github.com/mudita https://github.com/mudita [1] https://images.ctfassets.net/isxmxtc67n72/3tX0E1fLT8J9Twtao4tguc/4170e7ac185719ccd0d2b3fc45c1bb85/open-source.png https://images.ctfassets.net/isxmxtc67n72/3tX0E1fLT8J9Twtao4...
  - wojtekidd 6y ago
    The code is on GitHub and we will be letting people in batches to MuditaOS private repository. We're currently finishing working on documentation, CLA, etc. so that anybody who joins the repo will be able to start contributing as soon as possible. This is happening on top of our day-to-day development activities so bear with us - we'll send out emails with next steps to all people interested soon. For more info about the process and MuditaOS check out the blog post at https://mudita.com/community/blog/muditaos-goes-open-source-join-the-developer-preview/ https://mudita.com/community/blog/muditaos-goes-open-source-...
- traverseda 6y ago
  I filled out the form a couple days ago and haven't gotten any sort of invite.
  - wojtekidd 6y ago
    We're working on it - thank you for your patience :)
rcarmo 6y ago
I quite like the visual design. The "No Internet" bit I understand, as a concept, but if it were hackable I'd at least add a syncable calendar and a weather forecast (those are the two things I look at every morning anyway).
undefinednull 6y ago
pricing it at 300+ is insane.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  Not given their target market. The price is less of an objection than the lack of functionality.
kilroy123 6y ago
Looks like a blatant copy of the light. https://www.thelightphone.com https://www.thelightphone.com
- sm4rk0 6y ago
  It's just another minimalistic phone with an e-ink display. Different enough (numeric keypad, no touch screen) not to be called a blatant copy.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  If the operating system is open and they release an SDK, that will be a big improvement over the lightphone.
- Fnoord 6y ago
  Competition is good. Light Phone II is 300 USD. There was a FOSS project announced on crowdfunding platform, called Blloc [1]. Its a launcher for Android, for minimal, distraction free use. [1] https://www.blloc.com https://www.blloc.com
  - chadlavi 6y ago
    Probably ironically, none of the stuff on that site will load in my phone's browser unless I turn off content blockers
  - circularfoyers 6y ago
    I don't see any mention of Blloc being free and open source software in their website.
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      My bad, it isn't. It is however privacy and non-distraction/advertising focused. Makes sense it costs money (it is free, but the killer feature Tree Tile costs money).
snvzz 6y ago
No information whatsoever about the OS, and no link to the source code therefore I can't figure it out, either. Flagged. Way to waste my time.
lonesword 6y ago
No internet. No internet?! If I can't check my whatsapp/Telegram messages on a phone, I might as well go without a phone - none of my friends are going to send me an SMS/a regular phone call. No internet is a bad idea.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  It’s not ‘no internet’, it has 4G connectivity, and you can use it as an external modem. It’s just that they haven’t built it into the OS by default. Personally my thoughts were more along the lines of: That’s a cool phone, but thank god the OS is open source so someone can add the connected apps we need.
ForHackernews 6y ago
I wonder if this OS could be ported to run on other e-ink devices like this one: https://goodereader.com/blog/reviews/kingrow-k1-e-ink-android-smartphone-review https://goodereader.com/blog/reviews/kingrow-k1-e-ink-androi... Poor software support is a big stumbling block for these devices.
rbanffy 6y ago
I'm old enough to remember when announcements of new OSs centered on how it implemented multitasking, how it managed memory and how the filesystem worked. The announcement focuses on an app and barely touched what's under it.
- cmrdporcupine 6y ago
  Most "OS" releases these days are not operating systems. They're new user space layers on top of Linux. Actually OS development doesn't happen much, and the word has been repurposed.
  - AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
    > They're new user space layers on top of Linux. Even that is overstating it. They're just slightly different arrangements of the same set of user space components layered on top of the Linux kernel. I think there's a lot of potential for actually completely replacing the user space layer on top of Linux, but no one has done that except Google with Android.
m-p-3 6y ago
That would be nice if this can be ported to other eReaders like the Kindle and Kobo.
- webmaven 6y ago
  > That would be nice if this can be ported to other eReaders like the Kindle and Kobo. Does this actually have any ebook reading functionality? Skimming through, the closest thing seems to be "notes" .
- Fnoord 6y ago
  You can use a Kobo offline, see this guide [1]. A Kobo runs Linux under the hood, IIRC Android (probably some old version which is why I keep my WLAN offline and only allow on guest network. This also helps with battery). You can also install custom applications on it, for example Cool Reader [2]. A ReMarkable you can just SSH into. Which seems far more friendlier for customization, but its also a different price class and purpose. [1] https://kobo-offline.virgulilla.com/ https://kobo-offline.virgulilla.com/ [2] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222803 https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222803
  - scottlocklin 6y ago
    what? nobody mentioning Koreader? Light years ahead of whatever Nickel reader comes with the thing.
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      Link [1] Sorry, I never used any custom firmware on our Kobos. You see, I keep them offline, so I'd care less about security vulnerabilities in them (plus if they go online, its via guest network). Also, I am very content with the software on our Kobo readers (Aura One and Aura Two). I do use Calibre + USB sometimes. What am I missing out on? [1] https://github.com/koreader/koreader https://github.com/koreader/koreader
      - scottlocklin 6y ago
swiley 6y ago
I still haven't understood the advantages these custom mobile UIs have over a basic X11 DE with a software keyboard. PalmOS had it's own GUI because the whole OS was this insane feat of software engineering and something like X11 didn't fit on the abstractions they built. The result was something that could run forever on a couple of AAA batteries. If you're just sticking things on top of X/Wayland/Linux anyway at least make it usable.
- AshamedCaptain 6y ago
  Rather than a "insane feat of software engineering" I would define PalmOS as rather "extremely simple", complexity-wise on the level of classic macOS despite appearing a decade later. Right now, mobile stacks are usually even more complex that desktop stacks.
  - mjcohen 6y ago
    One of the neat things about PalmOS is that it ran apps directly from where they were stored. No need to load them into "memory". I loved the stylus because it allowed apps to be quite functional (I remember EasyCalc which could do wonders) on a 160x160 screen. 320x320 meant that you could do anything.
    - microcolonel 6y ago
      > One of the neat things about PalmOS is that it ran apps directly from where they were stored. No need to load them into "memory". In practice this is not the way it worked on PalmOS on actual hardware past a certain point, and the way it actually worked is not that different from how code is loaded in a conventional desktop operating system.
      - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
        What is called NVFS enters the picture so late in PalmOS story, and so few years before PalmOS hit the curb, that we can safely forget about it. For most of PalmOS story, programs would for all intents and purposes be installed to RAM and reside entirely in RAM.
pkphilip 6y ago
I love the design - very clean! Loved the design of the website too. Would have been great to have a screenshot gallery or video with a demonstration though. Not having Internet is both a feature as well as a problem. If I could have a phone which I can use for regular applications but which requires me to tether via USB etc to upload apps but can function without internet and GPS, I would actually consider it.
bprieto 6y ago
I like the idea of a non-intrusive phone, but this wouldn't be enough for me. So here is my wish list for a non-intrusive phone - e-ink - phone calls - SMS (I don't send them, but I need them for 2FA) - contact book synced with Google - calendar synced with Google - clock with alarms, timer and stopwatch - weather - music, it would be nice to use Spotify because I've invested a lot of time creating playlists but local files would do - bluetooth to send music to speakers - flashlight - sound recording (for calls recording and voice notes) - Whatsapp, it's my most used form of communication with family, friends and colleagues. But only text, no videos or images Optional but nice: - tethering - QR codes store for things like tickets that I could send from another device It would be enough for most of my day. I would have a second device for web browsing, maps and navigation, email, banking, QR reading, documents, gaming, etc., that I would only use when I really want to do those things.
- dubcanada 6y ago
  Sounds to me like you want a regular phone.
  - paleogizmo 6y ago
    I think this is the paradox that distraction-free phones always run into. Everyone including myself wants the useful or convenient niceties of a modern smartphone like maps, Spotify, various messaging tools, notes etc. without the dreck of social media. At this point, a stripped-down android launcher makes more sense than trying to bring back the candybar phone or some weird hardware middle ground. There are a bunch of minimalist launchers out there, but I haven't found anything really great. I was using "A Decluttered Launcher" until an update screwed up its handling of soft keys and have moved to Niagra.
    - ryukafalz 6y ago
      The balance I think I'd want is... basically an equivalent to old slider-style phones but with modern messaging/communication apps. Give me a slider phone with Matrix/XMPP/SIP support for messaging and calls and I would be very happy. Ideally FOSS too, so I don't have to worry about it being unpatchable in 3 years and can keep using it as long as it's useful.
jimmoores 6y ago
Bizarre, pretty misleading pages about electro-magnetic radiation were a huge turn-off.
- mromanuk 6y ago
  https://mudita.com/products/pure/sar/ https://mudita.com/products/pure/sar/ Is that all FUD?
  - wyldfire 6y ago
    It all looks relatively reasonable to me. They don't seem to make extreme claims anywhere in that page. There's a section that talks about some meta research regarding impact of non-ionizing radiation -- I'm not sure how accurate that is. But, again, they're not saying that you will suffer if you don't get their phone. Just that the radiation could be harmful, so they designed a phone w minimal SAR.
    - bananabreakfast 6y ago
      Did you read the same page I did?? They specifically and directly claim that a cell phone kept in a bra causes breast cancer.
  - bananabreakfast 6y ago
    Pretty much. There isn't any real scientific backing to anything they claim. In fact, they admit several times that most studies are "inconclusive" then go on to site single studies that may indicate "the potential" for harm. Like my phone could also theoretically increase my potential for getting eaten by a tiger. Psuedo-science BS.
  - zamadatix 6y ago
    Somewhat, it mixes 2 main talking points very well to the point it wants to present them as the same thing in a way that presents a lot of uncertainty and doubt (and a tiny bit of fear about that uncertainty) from information that doesn't necessarily back up that mixture. The main talking points: - What EM and SAR is and that anything in large enough amounts can be harmful with a bunch of info around the histories and studies that led to this understanding - The implied need to worry about EM SAR significantly more than the above regulations and studies talked about suggest with the implication the numbers aren't already padded for safety to start with. The former part is general product regulation which the page even admits was around before cell phones took off that nobody really has to know or think about, the latter is wrapping it in FUD. It's also important to note that while they link an enormous number of references it doesn't mean all of the claims on the page are backed up by any of them (again, look at the two main categories above for the majority of that split). E.g. the section on "Radiation-free areas should be established. Electrohypersensitive people can’t live near any electronic devices which emit radiation." has widely failed to have any robust result showing it as a "real" (as in actually caused by EMF) effect but this section doesn't mention that it just flows right into the section saying peer reviewed studies have verified "effects" without defining what effects, to what level, from what level of source, and if the effects were deemed a risk/harmful or just something that's possible to notice (e.g. if you turn on a lamp right next to you your arm gets warmer, this is an observable effect in extreme cases with no ill effect). The last thing I'll mention is there are some "dubious at best" transitions like the section explaining the difference between non-ionizing and ionizing radiation following up the claim "That is not to say that extended exposure to non-ionizing radiation isn’t harmful, we know that it is." with "Most of us know that a little bit of UV radiation can be useful" which not only gets into the main conflation mentioned at the beginning of the comment but also throws in extra conflation about something that both spans ionizing and non ionizing radiation being compared to a completely different part of the non-ionizing EM spectrum without note. . I think it's important to note that I come from a healthcare networking background and have been biased/predisposed to a certain viewpoint on the matter prior to reading the article as I've had to work with the health system on basically anything that communicates via RF (Wi-Fi, 4G, DAS, RFID, special frequency voice communication systems, one off device radios) which included review of any and all patient health risks related to deployment of the equipment.
K2L8M11N2 6y ago
There should be a non-SMS messaging app built into all those pure/light/offline phones. I have a lot of international friends and international texting is prohibitively expensive. Even if they would need a special app just to communicate with me, it would still be miles better than having no option at all. Same goes for VoIP calls, I don't care that it doesn't have WhatsApp/Telegram/Discord but I do care that there's no option to contact people from other countries without selling my kidney to afford it all.
paleogizmo 6y ago
Making a good general UI for E-ink is tough. Amazon would have been the ones to do it, but they put their attention to the Kindle Fire and left the regular Kindles as dedicated e-readers. Probably this was a good thing. Even so, I've noticed that tablet swipe gestures have made their way into the Kindle UI which just doesn't work with the slow refresh time of E-ink.
CobaltFire 6y ago
Everyone in this thread is talking about how this is just a user space on Linux without RTFA. It uses the FreeRTOS kernel, which isn’t Linux last time I checked. Also, it specifies LTE in the specs. I think the GSM tethering is a mistype or mistranslation; I don’t see why they wouldn’t allow it to tether the LTE data.
- wojtekidd 6y ago
  Could you please point me to the source of "GSM tethering"? We'll try to fix this asap. Thank you!
  - CobaltFire 6y ago
    https://mudita.com/products/pure/ https://mudita.com/products/pure/ Under “Network”, “Pure as data modem”, Second Paragraph, Second Sentence: “We decided to enable tethering via USB C cable so that Pure can be used as an external GSM modem.” This implies a 3G connection, so I checked the specs. This phone is pretty close to exactly what I want, so I’m considering buying it for myself and my spouse. Seriously considering purchasing a pair (this coming from someone who imported and ran two Nokia N9s for several years; I still miss that phone!); hope it’s everything it seems to be!
matthewfcarlson 6y ago
I was following the light phone 2 for a long time and ultimately decided not to buy it because I wanted access it from my desktop. I really like the approach they're going for here. Signed up for the beta so we'll see. If it doesn't work out, I'm just going to have to roll up my sleeves and make my own eink phone.
commonturtle 6y ago
I ask this with no malice: What makes people work on projects like this? I'm willing to bet that the phone is bound to fail and their OS will be doomed to obscurity. How do the creators not see this? Three reasons I don't think it will work out: 1. A huge number of people use WatsApp, Facetime, Messenger, etc., for sending messages and making calls. This OS won't support any of these apps. 2. We may hate our phones at times but we use them for a variety of daily tasks, all of which are difficult on this phone: Navigation (Google Maps >>> Any other Sat Nav system), transportation (Uber, etc.), food delivery, information retrieval (Google, etc.). 3. Even if you wanted a minimalist phone, you could probably just get a cheap feature phone instead of this one.
- stonogo 6y ago
  What if I want a minimalist phone that isn't cheap? So far my options are Light Phone and Punkt. MP-02. Not everyone is so tethered to consumption that they want all that stuff on their person at all times, but quality is still worth pursuing. I use calls, SMS, MMS, and data tethering. Sometimes an alarm clock. I don't want any of that other stuff, and I'd pay a lot for a good, high quality phone that focuses on the baseline and doesn't require me to offload everything to some megacorporation.
  - nashashmi 6y ago
    > minimalist phone that isn't cheap If anyone wants a great deal for a 99$ leather case https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/lcase2-mp02-leather-case/ https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/lcase2-mp02-leather-case/
- BossingAround 6y ago
  > What makes people work on projects like this? I would love to dualboot a minimalist OS that is supported on my device (e.g. Galaxy S[6-10]), works for basic things like calls and sms, and doubles my battery life. Then, when I need the full-featured experience, I'd just boot into Android. The reason this won't work is rather the device manufacturers, sadly. I agree with your conclusion that these OSes seem to be doomed to failure, but I strongly disagree with the premise.

211 points by ajeetdsouza 6y ago

I still don't get it. If you wanna do digital detox and still need a phone, get an used Motorola F3. - It can't do more than talk and same very bare texting (Mudita already got a calendar, something that wants to get your attention and don't get me started on that mediation timer) - costs almost nothing (Mudita Pure costs >300) - flat and small, therefore easy to put away in any bag or pouch and forget - doesn't has any big display where you need to take care of it - upcycles an old phone for what is likely a, perhaps repeating, but still temporary use case

black_puppydog 6y ago
I interpret this as a phone that can do the basics like agenda and such, but does them in an unintrusive way, and givesyou full control over when and how it's allowed to interrupt you. If so, that would definitely change the dynamics between me and my phone. Basically all apps on ios / android (modulo some positive exceptions) are out to grab my attention all the time, and the OSs make it quite hard to really control that. I guess that would be more sustainable than trying to disconnect entirely. Besides this, the link here is actually the OS, so this is actually OT.
- bebna 6y ago
  That os is only for that phone. There is a quick setting with a bar inside a circle, which shuts of any attention grabbers. If you still need some of those, you can allow them in the app-details notifications settings. Back on blackberry you controlled that similarly by defining important contacts, who are allowed to ignore mute. Even the palm pre had that functionality.
- pjmlp 6y ago
  I could already do that on my J2ME and Symbian phones.
vinay427 6y ago
Sort of off-topic, but for digital detox I've found that a phone that doesn't at least support WhatsApp, Signal, and a few other Android apps would be useless as a phone for me. I can't remember the last time I've used my phone for something that doesn't involve data, so I would rather detox temporarily with no phone at all. In case anyone has any suggestions: For a more sustainable long-term detox to avoid extensive screen time, I'm trying to find a very minimal Android device that can preferably be de-Googled (with Lineage or related Roms) but definitely at least supports a few basic Android applications but isn't very comfortable to use for just browsing. It's surprisingly difficult to find a small-display Android device these days...
- bebna 6y ago
  I tried it with an S3 mini, u could get a reasonably up to date version of android on it for current versions of whatsapp and co, but most of them had significant problems, especially with the hardware support. There was the Nokia 1, don't know how well available that still is. otherwise the kaios devices, I think they do have WhatsApp, but can't remember about the others. Therefore for everyday I just setup my phone to not annoy me and when I want to shut off completely, I switch to the F3, which gets thrown deep into the bag, just as an emergency thingy next to the basic first aid kit and I don't see it again until I got to go to work.
- spurgu 6y ago
  Agreed. Calls and SMS[0] are the least used features for me personally. Messaging apps would be required, unless you're going completely off the grid. I think the best/simplest digital detox method is turning off most notifications - nowadays there are quite granular controls. If you want to go completely off the grid while keeping a phone for emergencies, any dumbphone would do. [0] If you don't count receiving 2FA, delivery confirmations etc.
- ForHackernews 6y ago
  Maybe check out some of the older devices that are available with the /e/ OS? (de-googled android) https://esolutions.shop/ https://esolutions.shop/
- 6y ago
zeckalpha 6y ago
Is there still 2G coverage? My impression is they are taking down 3G endpoints now.

jack_riminton 6y ago

I do like the premise but I would've expected a few more specs; battery life? water and drop resistance? It's clear they've spent a lot of time on the form (over self-indulgently perhaps) but I hope it's not at the expense of function

okanesen 6y ago
I tried to look for it too and found it buried on a subpage[0], though the relevant information seems to be: * Battery: ~1600mAh * Water resistance: IP54 [0]: https://mudita.com/products/pure/specs/ https://mudita.com/products/pure/specs/
- jack_riminton 6y ago
  Good find, thanks

fahrradflucht 6y ago

I don't think going back to SMS and GSM based phone calls is really a viable option. They are just too insecure. You can say a lot of things about mobile internet, but at least it made end-to-end encrypted communication the norm.

black_puppydog 6y ago
The thing has Bluetooth though. I'm seriously considering getting one to see if I can get scuttlebutt running on it :D That would be a realnice fit actually. Mostly disconnected, synced with other devices when physically close, private messages end to end encrypted, and the full OS/app stack being built to not be attention-hogging. :P
- nefitty 6y ago
  What is scuttlebutt?
  - taneq 6y ago
    Rumours.
  - m-p-3 6y ago
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Scuttlebutt https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secure_Scuttlebutt
ralph87 6y ago
This idea is common but a strange one at least to me. Going back to GSM would of course be a regression due to their repeatedly broken crypto, but modern LTE networks have many desirable properties absent from Internet-based messaging. Perhaps it matters less to a US user, but as a European the fact an intra-country communication need not traverse any border nor be observable by any non-domestic entity is a huge deal for me, due to much stronger data protection laws in these parts covering both message content and metadata Then there is the trustworthiness of the communication medium itself. WhatsApp is being advocated in this thread, but WhatsApp is a massive chunk of unaudited code running on your handset that is published by an advertising company, code that by design steals your phonebook without telling you every time you run it. At least in the UK, telecom providers generally act for the most part as commodity infrastructure, we don't seem to have quite as many scummy behaviours as are reported in the US. Both approaches require a central counterparty with either absolute trust to protect your cleartext message in transit, or provide otherwise unaudited code claiming to protect the same. The bottom line for me is probably who gets to keep the metadata, a US advertising company or a local telco. I am certainly happier with the latter.

black_puppydog 6y ago

A bit sad to see that you have to fill out a typeform to get access to the code. I'm sure if it is actually FOSS (GPL or MIT or such) then there will be public forks on gitlab or whatnot. Looks cool though. Might be viable to adapt to different screen sizes too? I know the remarkable is already hackable, but can't hurt to have competing UI concepts there, right ? :)

tsar_nikolai 6y ago
Source seems to be on GitHub in a private repo from this [0] account, according to this [1] image on the submission page [0] https://github.com/mudita https://github.com/mudita [1] https://images.ctfassets.net/isxmxtc67n72/3tX0E1fLT8J9Twtao4tguc/4170e7ac185719ccd0d2b3fc45c1bb85/open-source.png https://images.ctfassets.net/isxmxtc67n72/3tX0E1fLT8J9Twtao4...
- wojtekidd 6y ago
  The code is on GitHub and we will be letting people in batches to MuditaOS private repository. We're currently finishing working on documentation, CLA, etc. so that anybody who joins the repo will be able to start contributing as soon as possible. This is happening on top of our day-to-day development activities so bear with us - we'll send out emails with next steps to all people interested soon. For more info about the process and MuditaOS check out the blog post at https://mudita.com/community/blog/muditaos-goes-open-source-join-the-developer-preview/ https://mudita.com/community/blog/muditaos-goes-open-source-...
traverseda 6y ago
I filled out the form a couple days ago and haven't gotten any sort of invite.
- wojtekidd 6y ago
  We're working on it - thank you for your patience :)

rcarmo 6y ago

I quite like the visual design. The "No Internet" bit I understand, as a concept, but if it were hackable I'd at least add a syncable calendar and a weather forecast (those are the two things I look at every morning anyway).

undefinednull 6y ago

pricing it at 300+ is insane.

Aeolun 6y ago
Not given their target market. The price is less of an objection than the lack of functionality.

kilroy123 6y ago

Looks like a blatant copy of the light. https://www.thelightphone.com https://www.thelightphone.com

sm4rk0 6y ago
It's just another minimalistic phone with an e-ink display. Different enough (numeric keypad, no touch screen) not to be called a blatant copy.
ForHackernews 6y ago
If the operating system is open and they release an SDK, that will be a big improvement over the lightphone.
Fnoord 6y ago
Competition is good. Light Phone II is 300 USD. There was a FOSS project announced on crowdfunding platform, called Blloc [1]. Its a launcher for Android, for minimal, distraction free use. [1] https://www.blloc.com https://www.blloc.com
- chadlavi 6y ago
  Probably ironically, none of the stuff on that site will load in my phone's browser unless I turn off content blockers
- circularfoyers 6y ago
  I don't see any mention of Blloc being free and open source software in their website.
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    My bad, it isn't. It is however privacy and non-distraction/advertising focused. Makes sense it costs money (it is free, but the killer feature Tree Tile costs money).

snvzz 6y ago

No information whatsoever about the OS, and no link to the source code therefore I can't figure it out, either. Flagged. Way to waste my time.

lonesword 6y ago

No internet. No internet?! If I can't check my whatsapp/Telegram messages on a phone, I might as well go without a phone - none of my friends are going to send me an SMS/a regular phone call. No internet is a bad idea.

Aeolun 6y ago
It’s not ‘no internet’, it has 4G connectivity, and you can use it as an external modem. It’s just that they haven’t built it into the OS by default. Personally my thoughts were more along the lines of: That’s a cool phone, but thank god the OS is open source so someone can add the connected apps we need.

ForHackernews 6y ago

I wonder if this OS could be ported to run on other e-ink devices like this one: https://goodereader.com/blog/reviews/kingrow-k1-e-ink-android-smartphone-review https://goodereader.com/blog/reviews/kingrow-k1-e-ink-androi... Poor software support is a big stumbling block for these devices.

rbanffy 6y ago

I'm old enough to remember when announcements of new OSs centered on how it implemented multitasking, how it managed memory and how the filesystem worked. The announcement focuses on an app and barely touched what's under it.

cmrdporcupine 6y ago
Most "OS" releases these days are not operating systems. They're new user space layers on top of Linux. Actually OS development doesn't happen much, and the word has been repurposed.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y ago
  > They're new user space layers on top of Linux. Even that is overstating it. They're just slightly different arrangements of the same set of user space components layered on top of the Linux kernel. I think there's a lot of potential for actually completely replacing the user space layer on top of Linux, but no one has done that except Google with Android.

m-p-3 6y ago

That would be nice if this can be ported to other eReaders like the Kindle and Kobo.

webmaven 6y ago
> That would be nice if this can be ported to other eReaders like the Kindle and Kobo. Does this actually have any ebook reading functionality? Skimming through, the closest thing seems to be "notes" .
Fnoord 6y ago
You can use a Kobo offline, see this guide [1]. A Kobo runs Linux under the hood, IIRC Android (probably some old version which is why I keep my WLAN offline and only allow on guest network. This also helps with battery). You can also install custom applications on it, for example Cool Reader [2]. A ReMarkable you can just SSH into. Which seems far more friendlier for customization, but its also a different price class and purpose. [1] https://kobo-offline.virgulilla.com/ https://kobo-offline.virgulilla.com/ [2] https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222803 https://www.mobileread.com/forums/showthread.php?t=222803
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  what? nobody mentioning Koreader? Light years ahead of whatever Nickel reader comes with the thing.
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    Link [1] Sorry, I never used any custom firmware on our Kobos. You see, I keep them offline, so I'd care less about security vulnerabilities in them (plus if they go online, its via guest network). Also, I am very content with the software on our Kobo readers (Aura One and Aura Two). I do use Calibre + USB sometimes. What am I missing out on? [1] https://github.com/koreader/koreader https://github.com/koreader/koreader
    - scottlocklin 6y ago

swiley 6y ago

I still haven't understood the advantages these custom mobile UIs have over a basic X11 DE with a software keyboard. PalmOS had it's own GUI because the whole OS was this insane feat of software engineering and something like X11 didn't fit on the abstractions they built. The result was something that could run forever on a couple of AAA batteries. If you're just sticking things on top of X/Wayland/Linux anyway at least make it usable.

AshamedCaptain 6y ago
Rather than a "insane feat of software engineering" I would define PalmOS as rather "extremely simple", complexity-wise on the level of classic macOS despite appearing a decade later. Right now, mobile stacks are usually even more complex that desktop stacks.
- mjcohen 6y ago
  One of the neat things about PalmOS is that it ran apps directly from where they were stored. No need to load them into "memory". I loved the stylus because it allowed apps to be quite functional (I remember EasyCalc which could do wonders) on a 160x160 screen. 320x320 meant that you could do anything.
  - microcolonel 6y ago
    > One of the neat things about PalmOS is that it ran apps directly from where they were stored. No need to load them into "memory". In practice this is not the way it worked on PalmOS on actual hardware past a certain point, and the way it actually worked is not that different from how code is loaded in a conventional desktop operating system.
    - AshamedCaptain 6y ago
      What is called NVFS enters the picture so late in PalmOS story, and so few years before PalmOS hit the curb, that we can safely forget about it. For most of PalmOS story, programs would for all intents and purposes be installed to RAM and reside entirely in RAM.

pkphilip 6y ago

I love the design - very clean! Loved the design of the website too. Would have been great to have a screenshot gallery or video with a demonstration though. Not having Internet is both a feature as well as a problem. If I could have a phone which I can use for regular applications but which requires me to tether via USB etc to upload apps but can function without internet and GPS, I would actually consider it.

bprieto 6y ago

I like the idea of a non-intrusive phone, but this wouldn't be enough for me. So here is my wish list for a non-intrusive phone - e-ink - phone calls - SMS (I don't send them, but I need them for 2FA) - contact book synced with Google - calendar synced with Google - clock with alarms, timer and stopwatch - weather - music, it would be nice to use Spotify because I've invested a lot of time creating playlists but local files would do - bluetooth to send music to speakers - flashlight - sound recording (for calls recording and voice notes) - Whatsapp, it's my most used form of communication with family, friends and colleagues. But only text, no videos or images Optional but nice: - tethering - QR codes store for things like tickets that I could send from another device It would be enough for most of my day. I would have a second device for web browsing, maps and navigation, email, banking, QR reading, documents, gaming, etc., that I would only use when I really want to do those things.

dubcanada 6y ago
Sounds to me like you want a regular phone.
- paleogizmo 6y ago
  I think this is the paradox that distraction-free phones always run into. Everyone including myself wants the useful or convenient niceties of a modern smartphone like maps, Spotify, various messaging tools, notes etc. without the dreck of social media. At this point, a stripped-down android launcher makes more sense than trying to bring back the candybar phone or some weird hardware middle ground. There are a bunch of minimalist launchers out there, but I haven't found anything really great. I was using "A Decluttered Launcher" until an update screwed up its handling of soft keys and have moved to Niagra.
  - ryukafalz 6y ago
    The balance I think I'd want is... basically an equivalent to old slider-style phones but with modern messaging/communication apps. Give me a slider phone with Matrix/XMPP/SIP support for messaging and calls and I would be very happy. Ideally FOSS too, so I don't have to worry about it being unpatchable in 3 years and can keep using it as long as it's useful.

jimmoores 6y ago

Bizarre, pretty misleading pages about electro-magnetic radiation were a huge turn-off.

mromanuk 6y ago
https://mudita.com/products/pure/sar/ https://mudita.com/products/pure/sar/ Is that all FUD?
- wyldfire 6y ago
  It all looks relatively reasonable to me. They don't seem to make extreme claims anywhere in that page. There's a section that talks about some meta research regarding impact of non-ionizing radiation -- I'm not sure how accurate that is. But, again, they're not saying that you will suffer if you don't get their phone. Just that the radiation could be harmful, so they designed a phone w minimal SAR.
  - bananabreakfast 6y ago
    Did you read the same page I did?? They specifically and directly claim that a cell phone kept in a bra causes breast cancer.
- bananabreakfast 6y ago
  Pretty much. There isn't any real scientific backing to anything they claim. In fact, they admit several times that most studies are "inconclusive" then go on to site single studies that may indicate "the potential" for harm. Like my phone could also theoretically increase my potential for getting eaten by a tiger. Psuedo-science BS.
- zamadatix 6y ago
  Somewhat, it mixes 2 main talking points very well to the point it wants to present them as the same thing in a way that presents a lot of uncertainty and doubt (and a tiny bit of fear about that uncertainty) from information that doesn't necessarily back up that mixture. The main talking points: - What EM and SAR is and that anything in large enough amounts can be harmful with a bunch of info around the histories and studies that led to this understanding - The implied need to worry about EM SAR significantly more than the above regulations and studies talked about suggest with the implication the numbers aren't already padded for safety to start with. The former part is general product regulation which the page even admits was around before cell phones took off that nobody really has to know or think about, the latter is wrapping it in FUD. It's also important to note that while they link an enormous number of references it doesn't mean all of the claims on the page are backed up by any of them (again, look at the two main categories above for the majority of that split). E.g. the section on "Radiation-free areas should be established. Electrohypersensitive people can’t live near any electronic devices which emit radiation." has widely failed to have any robust result showing it as a "real" (as in actually caused by EMF) effect but this section doesn't mention that it just flows right into the section saying peer reviewed studies have verified "effects" without defining what effects, to what level, from what level of source, and if the effects were deemed a risk/harmful or just something that's possible to notice (e.g. if you turn on a lamp right next to you your arm gets warmer, this is an observable effect in extreme cases with no ill effect). The last thing I'll mention is there are some "dubious at best" transitions like the section explaining the difference between non-ionizing and ionizing radiation following up the claim "That is not to say that extended exposure to non-ionizing radiation isn’t harmful, we know that it is." with "Most of us know that a little bit of UV radiation can be useful" which not only gets into the main conflation mentioned at the beginning of the comment but also throws in extra conflation about something that both spans ionizing and non ionizing radiation being compared to a completely different part of the non-ionizing EM spectrum without note. . I think it's important to note that I come from a healthcare networking background and have been biased/predisposed to a certain viewpoint on the matter prior to reading the article as I've had to work with the health system on basically anything that communicates via RF (Wi-Fi, 4G, DAS, RFID, special frequency voice communication systems, one off device radios) which included review of any and all patient health risks related to deployment of the equipment.

K2L8M11N2 6y ago

There should be a non-SMS messaging app built into all those pure/light/offline phones. I have a lot of international friends and international texting is prohibitively expensive. Even if they would need a special app just to communicate with me, it would still be miles better than having no option at all. Same goes for VoIP calls, I don't care that it doesn't have WhatsApp/Telegram/Discord but I do care that there's no option to contact people from other countries without selling my kidney to afford it all.

paleogizmo 6y ago

Making a good general UI for E-ink is tough. Amazon would have been the ones to do it, but they put their attention to the Kindle Fire and left the regular Kindles as dedicated e-readers. Probably this was a good thing. Even so, I've noticed that tablet swipe gestures have made their way into the Kindle UI which just doesn't work with the slow refresh time of E-ink.

CobaltFire 6y ago

Everyone in this thread is talking about how this is just a user space on Linux without RTFA. It uses the FreeRTOS kernel, which isn’t Linux last time I checked. Also, it specifies LTE in the specs. I think the GSM tethering is a mistype or mistranslation; I don’t see why they wouldn’t allow it to tether the LTE data.

wojtekidd 6y ago
Could you please point me to the source of "GSM tethering"? We'll try to fix this asap. Thank you!
- CobaltFire 6y ago
  https://mudita.com/products/pure/ https://mudita.com/products/pure/ Under “Network”, “Pure as data modem”, Second Paragraph, Second Sentence: “We decided to enable tethering via USB C cable so that Pure can be used as an external GSM modem.” This implies a 3G connection, so I checked the specs. This phone is pretty close to exactly what I want, so I’m considering buying it for myself and my spouse. Seriously considering purchasing a pair (this coming from someone who imported and ran two Nokia N9s for several years; I still miss that phone!); hope it’s everything it seems to be!

matthewfcarlson 6y ago

I was following the light phone 2 for a long time and ultimately decided not to buy it because I wanted access it from my desktop. I really like the approach they're going for here. Signed up for the beta so we'll see. If it doesn't work out, I'm just going to have to roll up my sleeves and make my own eink phone.

commonturtle 6y ago

I ask this with no malice: What makes people work on projects like this? I'm willing to bet that the phone is bound to fail and their OS will be doomed to obscurity. How do the creators not see this? Three reasons I don't think it will work out: 1. A huge number of people use WatsApp, Facetime, Messenger, etc., for sending messages and making calls. This OS won't support any of these apps. 2. We may hate our phones at times but we use them for a variety of daily tasks, all of which are difficult on this phone: Navigation (Google Maps >>> Any other Sat Nav system), transportation (Uber, etc.), food delivery, information retrieval (Google, etc.). 3. Even if you wanted a minimalist phone, you could probably just get a cheap feature phone instead of this one.

stonogo 6y ago
What if I want a minimalist phone that isn't cheap? So far my options are Light Phone and Punkt. MP-02. Not everyone is so tethered to consumption that they want all that stuff on their person at all times, but quality is still worth pursuing. I use calls, SMS, MMS, and data tethering. Sometimes an alarm clock. I don't want any of that other stuff, and I'd pay a lot for a good, high quality phone that focuses on the baseline and doesn't require me to offload everything to some megacorporation.
- nashashmi 6y ago
  > minimalist phone that isn't cheap If anyone wants a great deal for a 99$ leather case https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/lcase2-mp02-leather-case/ https://www.punkt.ch/en/products/lcase2-mp02-leather-case/
BossingAround 6y ago
> What makes people work on projects like this? I would love to dualboot a minimalist OS that is supported on my device (e.g. Galaxy S[6-10]), works for basic things like calls and sms, and doubles my battery life. Then, when I need the full-featured experience, I'd just boot into Android. The reason this won't work is rather the device manufacturers, sadly. I agree with your conclusion that these OSes seem to be doomed to failure, but I strongly disagree with the premise.