18 ms·

Whose Computer Is It?

241 points by miles 6y ago

based2 6y ago
Does macos becomes windows 10?
- simion314 6y ago
  Probably iOS, IMO
  - artiszt 6y ago
    sadly true
gnrlbzik 6y ago
fascinating... at least you could still remove these from the list : )
jtbayly 6y ago
I wish the article had actually elaborated on the question posed in the title, rather than assuming the implications are obvious. I think it’s a vital question, but I have a hard time figuring out why I’m so uncomfortable with Apple’s decision here. I think the thing that this article could and should have made clear now that I think about it is that you are being forced to choose between a computer secured against Apple or one where you are secured against others. You are not allowed to secure it against others and Apple.
- spiffytech 6y ago
  I think the crux of the issue is OS vendors are withholding agency that users and developers are used to having over computers, and getting away with it by a combination of being duopolies and PR spinning restrictions as good for the user, even when that's clearly not the primary justification. Everyone is debating whether any given restriction is good or bad, warranted or not. The bigger issue is that vendors get to set whatever rules they want, because if users or developers don't like it, where are they gonna go?
  - Rury 6y ago
    Sometimes they withhold agency for good purpose though. Actually, a good anecdote from today. We have an internal app within our company that a user had gone in and messed with a file it relies on. Consequently, the app stopped working correctly and multiple other people started complaining that the app wasn't working. To prevent the issue from happening again - we've "Secured" the file away so users can't mess with it like they did ever again... As so - vendors sometimes withhold agency to control how the product works - so it works as designed for their customers.
    - _qulr 6y ago
      > Actually, a good anecdote from today. We have an internal app within our company That's not a good anecdote. The user is an employee of the company and not the owner of the app. I paid thousands of dollars for my Mac. I legally own it. I expect to be able to use it as I please.
      - Rury 6y ago
        >I expect to be able to use it as I please. This is your problem. Apple doesn't sell the product: "computer devices at which you can do whatever you want with". They sell "computer device which does lots of things easily. To ensure these things work properly, the nitty bits are secured away from you"
        _qulr 6y ago
        > This is your problem. No, my problem is that Apple keeps changing the terms. The Mac that I purchased is no longer the Mac that I have. Apple now only provides 3 years of security updates for the OS that came with your Mac. You can't even buy an extended service contract! So then you're forced to "upgrade" the OS or else live with a bunch of known vulnerabilities. But every new version of the OS locks down the Mac even more. That's not what I paid for. Moreover, it was Apple's decision to start shipping major new OS versions on a yearly schedule. That's not how it was in the past. Mac OS X Jaguar lasted 14 months, Panther 18, Tiger 30, Leopard 22, Snow Leopard 23 months. But then Steve Jobs stepped down for health reasons, passed away, and Tim Cook "altered the deal".
- arexxbifs 6y ago
  > I wish the article had actually elaborated on the question posed in the title The answer is, as it has been for the last decade or so, "not yours even though you paid for it." > assuming the implications are obvious They are to me. Computers are great because we can control everything about them. Now we're not allowed to do so anymore, because the manufacturers said so. And, since a computer today is likely connected to the internet, control is more important than ever. Because if you're not in control, then who is? > I have a hard time figuring out why I’m so uncomfortable with Apple’s decision here. Maybe because they, like most other tech companies, go on and on about security and privacy while time and time again showing they do not actually give one single fuck whatsoever about it? > choose between a computer secured against Apple or one where you are secured against others Not quite sure I follow you. I'm pretty sure any Linux or *BSD box can be as firewalled as you like to as many parties as you like.
- webmobdev 6y ago
  > but I have a hard time figuring out why I’m so uncomfortable with Apple’s decision here. You are facing what marketers fear the most - a "cognitive dissonance". Basically, when words don't match deeds, you start questioning and start thinking instead of blindly believing someone. When customers start to do that, it creates a lot of headaches for brand managers and marketers because it implies that you are starting to lose trust in them, and that obviously doesn't bode well for a company's profit margins. With respect to Apple here, I have been quite vocal on HN for a long time that Apple has been repeatedly LYING to us that they care about our privacy. They absolutely do not. They are using the exact same tactic that Google used in the beginning - pretend to be trustworthy and than slowly change the terms and policy to mine our data for profit. In fact, Apple has been increasingly becoming more and more intrusive in mining our personal data. And their marketing narration has been to try to paint this as a good thing - that they are protecting our privacy by being the sole custodian of it, but you have to "trust" them to do the right thing.
pwdisswordfish4 6y ago
Why have no die-hard, many-times-burned Mac fans not yet picked up GNUStep and launchd and polished them into an acceptable replacement for the 2010-era Mac desktop? Most Mac developers don't seem to be that kind of developer. (So much for "Think different"?) It seems clear that the beatings are just going to continue.
- morganvachon 6y ago
  I think that ship sailed after Swift was released and Objective-C/Cocoa were deprecated.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    Objective-C and Cocoa are not deprecated.
    - morganvachon 6y ago
      I guess "deprecated" is a bit strong, but it's definitely on the way out, and Cocoa with it. https://sandofsky.com/architecture/objective-c-in-a-swift-world/ https://sandofsky.com/architecture/objective-c-in-a-swift-wo...
- tl 6y ago
  Personal investment into the platform has yielded professional returns. If that return dries up or frustrations continue to mount, you will see migration.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Those are opposite user experiences: the sealed, polished decisions made for you vs. gluing together obsolete technologies. And I say that as somebody who used to be a big WindowMaker fan.
- schwartzworld 6y ago
  I am not an apple fanboy, but I was under the impression that the major selling point of Apple is that you don't _need_ to be that kind of developer. A lot of things that are very fiddly on Linux just work on macos.
speeder 6y ago
Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions? Suppose I want to buy a OS or a computer+OS (like Mac), so not talking about Linux and FreeBSD and whatnot. Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me by taking away control under the guise of security?
- morganvachon 6y ago
  "Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions?" That's impossible to answer accurately, as by definition being proprietary means even if they say they don't, we can't verify it by seeing the code for ourselves. "Suppose I want to buy a OS or a computer+OS (like Mac), so not talking about Linux and FreeBSD and whatnot. Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me by taking away control under the guise of security?" The short answer is "no", you cannot. However, you can indeed buy devices with no OS and load Linux (even Linux Certified devices from major OEMs), and even better you can buy a device from a Linux-first/Linux-only vendor like System 76, Think Penguin, Star Labs, etc. If Linux isn't your cup, OpenBSD is a strong contender for truly owning your equipment at the software level, as it is open source and well documented, with security as a major goal. Thinkpads and enterprise-class workstations fare best, but it also works great on older Macs.
  - jancsika 6y ago
    > even Linux Certified devices from major OEMs I've got the XPS 13 from Dell that comes with Ubuntu pre-installed. AFAICT there's no shenanigans Dell is pulling wrt user data, phoning home, etc.
- hinkley 6y ago
  In some important ways, the computer you sit down in front of is at the mercy of the network that you attach it to. There are many things you can control about the computer if you control the machines it can talk to. A linux box running several pieces of software that the community works on to thwart this kind of misbehavior is something you can control, even if you can't control your Chromebook.
8bitsrule 6y ago
After the last Mac I bought (not to mention the first one) quickly developed a bad hard drive (ignored partitions) and then the display failed about 14 months into warranty (like hundreds of other owners reported on Apple's site forum - before they erased those complaints....) "I did some tests and I’ve found ..." that I could indeed live without a Mac. For a decade I did like Logic and Garageband, but not THAT much.
ChuckMcM 6y ago
This is another in a long line of examples where I am coming around to the conclusion that "computer" is not what we should call these application delivery vehicles. In the post mathematician, electronic version, of the world "computer" was used to represent a tool on which the owner (or lease holder) would run "software" that could use some, or all, of the machine. And what was more, the machine ONLY ever executed software that the owner asked it to execute either directly or through the requesting of library services. Systems that had computers in them, but ran applications written by the vendor so that the system could provide some function of value to the "owner" where always thought of as appliances. Perhaps the canonical example for our age is the Television, which has essentially one function "view video content" which is assisted by a control for selecting video content source. And yet, televisions today, have very powerful computer complexes within them that run vendor software. The modes breaks down for me when you combine them, both because the software the vendor provides for their "computer" to provide application like services is written to defend itself from change/influence by the owner who has access to the computer. From Apple's perspective, they are walking toward a world where one of the applications you can run on your device is "computer", which is nothing more than a virtual machine that you have virtually full control over (pun intended). IBM had a really great model of this called VM/370. Everything is a VM.
- m463 6y ago
  It is just a cash register or checkout line for the store owner. I will say two things give me hope. People on this site - technical people with the ability to make a difference - seem to be getting to the point where they care. Also, while reading the .pdf of the lawsuit against google, one of the key points is that you can't fork android or uninstall google software. I wonder if that might apply to google, and possibly transfer to apple. I would like to be able to install alternative "gatekeeper" software not created by apple.
  - grishka 6y ago
    > Also, while reading the .pdf of the lawsuit against google, one of the key points is that you can't fork android or uninstall google software. Except you can and you don't need Google's permission to do it either. Many devices come with unlockable bootloaders, and all custom ROMs come without anything Google so you actually have to install Google apps manually should you want them.
pjc50 6y ago
A while ago I half-wrote an article on the warring factions for control. I have since posting this edited "the device owner" in at the top, because people have been misinterpreting the intent. 0 The device owner 0.5 The device user (not necesarily the purchaser) 1 Phishers, fraudsters, harassers 2 Governments, policemen, censors & spies 3 The media industry 4 The advertising and marketing industry 5 Platform holder (controller of the company store monopoly) 6 Manufacturer (may be the same as the platform holder or may be rivals) 7 Network operators (telcos or cable companies) Each has their own agenda and reasons for taking away control from the legitimate user. So far they seem to be stalemated.
- machrider 6y ago
  It's funny how the end user isn't even in the list.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    I wrote "for taking away control from the legitimate user" at the end. I can't believe people are taking the worst possible interpretation of this, but I suppose that's HN. I have since posting this edited "the device owner" in at the top.
- m463 6y ago
  s/stalemated/winning/
- Silhouette 6y ago
  So far they seem to be stalemated. It's telling that you apparently didn't consider legitimate users a peer of the other factions fighting for control. Unfortunately, that just means the user is being abused by all of the others to varying degrees rather than one dominant abuser.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    I wrote "for taking away control from the legitimate user" at the end and you didn't read that far. I have since posting this edited "the device owner" in at the top, because people have been misinterpreting the intent.
grishka 6y ago
So, anyway, is there any desktop OS that respects its user and where GUI isn't an afterthought? I keep thinking lately that maybe there needs to be an open-source reimplementation of the proprietary parts of macOS.
- ViViDboarder 6y ago
  ElementaryOS is probably the most prevalent one that is very UI focused in its design and very Apple-esq in it’s simplicity (and lack of options).
  - grishka 6y ago
    And since it's Linux, whenever you want to use an app that didn't come with your distro the UX is meh to say the least.
    - noobermin 6y ago
      It's like people who make this argument never use third party apps on their macs or whatever.
- LockAndLol 6y ago
  Could you try and explain what you believe are the reasons are for the state of GUI frameworks on Linux? Additionally, I'd be interested in reading what it is you believe should be done to rectify what, in your opinion, is suboptimal.
- smallstepforman 6y ago
  Http://haiku-os.org
georgeecollins 6y ago
If I were trying to do something that I really needed to be secure-- really secure-- from companies and state actors, my instinct would be to start from Raspberry PI because I can control the software it boots from. Is that a bad idea?
- ozten 6y ago
  I think the Raspberry PI is awesome, but it is a big pile of closed source processing units that no-one completely understands. For example it boots from the GPU, not the CPU. Wow... I would use an "open as possible" hardware platform like those from Bunnie https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=28 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=28 for example. Novena Laptop https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena
  - metahost 6y ago
    > For example it boots from the GPU, not the CPU. Could you kindly point out a reference to this, I would love to read up on it.
    - ozten 6y ago
      Not a definitive source, but https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/14862/why-does-the-raspberry-pis-gpu-control-the-first-stages-of-the-boot-process https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/14862/why-do...
      - georgeecollins 6y ago
        Based on this, it looks like Broadcom open sourced the drivers. Does that make the Raspberry Pi potentially secure?
        jamesgeck0 6y ago
        No. If I understand correctly, we now know that the Raspberry Pi 3 can never be fully secured due to corners cut by Broadcom. https://github.com/christinaa/rpi-open-firmware/issues/37#issuecomment-388551489 https://github.com/christinaa/rpi-open-firmware/issues/37#is...
joshspankit 6y ago
This nonsense started the moment that we shifted in to licensing models and thus away from ownership models. Change my mind.
- mr_toad 6y ago
  We’ve had IP laws in some form since at least the 16th century, probably earlier.
  - Silhouette 6y ago
    And which of those laws was written to allow hardware manufacturers to artificially limit what you could do with a product you had bought just because it happens to also have a software component? The corruption of copyright to serve entirely different purposes from its original intent, with the goal of artificially giving a manufacturer ongoing control of hardware products after purchase, is a buyer-hostile abuse of the legal framework that should have been comprehensively blocked long ago, whether it's related to your personal computer, your vehicle, your TV...
  - joshspankit 6y ago
    Echoing @Silhouette’s comment: having IP laws has not meant (to my knowledge) that companies could dictate what a customer did with tangible goods that they purchased legally. Not until the past couple decades.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
The real problem here is Big Sur's root snapshot system. Everything else, as far as I'm concerned, is fundamentally trivial to deal with. I've kept SIP turned off since it was introduced, and in the brief time I was using Catalina, I had a launchd job that ran at load to set the rootfs to read write. The computer was mine, and I edited plenty of system files like this. But Big Sur makes it all much harder, because changes to the root filesystem don't take effect until you reboot. That is really, persistently annoying! During early betas, some Macrumors users reported that if you powered off a computer at the right point during the install process, you'd end up with a version of Big Sur that didn't use a root snapshot. If there was a more consistent way to enable that, it would help a lot.
- cma 6y ago
  They are now using this stuff to force you to waste 2Gib on about 6 desktop wallpapers. The only user-doable solution that won't get undone at the next update seems to be to buy a new SSD with more storage to make up for it, for 2-3X the retail price of non-proprietary SSDs. For some reason they thought the stock wallpapers needed to change with the time of day and the way they implemented it takes hundreds of megs each. Then it is locked down by this system protect stuff so you can't get rid of them.
nbzso 6y ago
I use L Snitch from version one. After Catalina I plan to run offline mac for design, photography and video work connected to intranet/NAS. Everything that connects to outside network traffic will be properly run on linux boxes. This is the future. You will not own your data until you create a procedure to guard it as permitted by law. Apple is gone, you have now a different company working for shareholders only. Another step that I personally advocate to my friends is to use only software designed to run on multiple os hosts. I cannot risk some corporate decision motivated by pure greed to kill my workflow. Apple has a plan to close Mac Os completely, its their business to make more money by controlling the experience full circle. Thats why I overcome the lust factor and will not buy any Apple product anymore. If I need a camera - I will buy a camera, if I need a phone I will buy something that can be rooted and I have control over it. I expect in near future more commercial software to be made for linux and will pay good money for it without a moment of hesitation
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  > After Catalina I plan to run offline mac for design, photography and video work connected to intranet/NAS. Good luck. Keep in mind you won't be able to use any software that requires online activation (Adobe products, Sketch), and certainly none of the apps that won't launch without internet (Figma).
  - nbzso 6y ago
    In my office I have chosen to invest in “no cloud” design software dependency. We don’t believe in collaborative UX/UI design workflow outside the office. We use our own code based workflow for prototyping. I am in design field 18 years, there is a way to deliver quality in pure form without using trending tools, cloud based plugins and direct collaboration. Convenience is not always the king. But this is strictly my decision and I don’t imply thats is for everyone.
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      I'd be very interested to hear what are you are using! Nothing from Adobe either?
reid 6y ago
On the other hand, I'm hoping this kind of thing allows Sidecar to work on Macs logged into VPNs.
tamaharbor 6y ago
Hunter Biden’s?
causality0 6y ago
I'm often faced with problems that would've been trivially easy to solve if I'd been dealing with them on 15-20 year old equipment and software. For example, the Google Assistant confirmation noise is ear-shatteringly loud and unpleasant. Facing a similar problem twenty years ago I could've just found the noise's audio file and deleted it, replaced it with something better, or even replaced it with a smaller-amplitude version of itself. In 2020 I can do absolutely nothing about this problem other than making my media volume so quiet I can't hear the things I actually want. My phone is mounted in the center of my dashboard but faces me in the driver seat. The phone's compass senses this. Google Maps senses this as well, and on a good day shows my arrow sliding sideways down the highway. On a bad day it becomes convinced I am either driving down the highway in reverse or am actually in the opposite lane, and falls all over itself trying to recalculate my route. I often fantasize about the compass being a plug-in unit that I could rip out and smash into powder with a hammer.
- maheart 6y ago
  This is why I use SailfishOS. Modern Android and iOS are so insanely complex, it seems impossible to do the simplest things with code. Yes you can root your phone, and you have access to (Android) source code including 3rd party FOSS apps and build tools. However, writing code, building, and iterating on the device is almost non-existent (I don't consider termux an ideal fit), not to mention the sandboxing/protections that are in place. The hacker spirit still seems very much alive in the SailfishOS community. The community isn't big, but people come up with smart ideas that leverage existing solutions. SSH in, write Python code, write QML, zypp install build tools, pip install libraries (inside virtualenv), execute it, see changes on screen, hook into the existing system using xdg standards and dbus, manage services with systemd. It's fun to hack on. If I had to characterise it, Android/iOS vs SailfishOS, is the equivalent to Java vs Python. The former is well-engineered, secure, perhaps overly architected, and widely used for "serious" and Enterprise solutions. It certainly has good reasons for how it does things. The latter is more organic; the same solutions can be achieved (with certain caveats) but with less hassle. From a developer perspective, Android and iOS have sucked all the fun and creativity out of the devices. * Sorry about piggybacking off top post, I just found that it strongly resonated what I've thought.
a9h74j 6y ago
Related comments (discussing "security" vs hardware repair) under a new video: Rossmann, "Serializing parts will destroy independent repair" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz2R7-zTdKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz2R7-zTdKk
visarga 6y ago
You may fancy yourself a homeowner but you're just a guest in Apple Hotel.

241 points by miles 6y ago

based2 6y ago

Does macos becomes windows 10?

simion314 6y ago
Probably iOS, IMO
- artiszt 6y ago
  sadly true

gnrlbzik 6y ago

fascinating... at least you could still remove these from the list : )

jtbayly 6y ago

I wish the article had actually elaborated on the question posed in the title, rather than assuming the implications are obvious. I think it’s a vital question, but I have a hard time figuring out why I’m so uncomfortable with Apple’s decision here. I think the thing that this article could and should have made clear now that I think about it is that you are being forced to choose between a computer secured against Apple or one where you are secured against others. You are not allowed to secure it against others and Apple.

spiffytech 6y ago
I think the crux of the issue is OS vendors are withholding agency that users and developers are used to having over computers, and getting away with it by a combination of being duopolies and PR spinning restrictions as good for the user, even when that's clearly not the primary justification. Everyone is debating whether any given restriction is good or bad, warranted or not. The bigger issue is that vendors get to set whatever rules they want, because if users or developers don't like it, where are they gonna go?
- Rury 6y ago
  Sometimes they withhold agency for good purpose though. Actually, a good anecdote from today. We have an internal app within our company that a user had gone in and messed with a file it relies on. Consequently, the app stopped working correctly and multiple other people started complaining that the app wasn't working. To prevent the issue from happening again - we've "Secured" the file away so users can't mess with it like they did ever again... As so - vendors sometimes withhold agency to control how the product works - so it works as designed for their customers.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    > Actually, a good anecdote from today. We have an internal app within our company That's not a good anecdote. The user is an employee of the company and not the owner of the app. I paid thousands of dollars for my Mac. I legally own it. I expect to be able to use it as I please.
    - Rury 6y ago
      >I expect to be able to use it as I please. This is your problem. Apple doesn't sell the product: "computer devices at which you can do whatever you want with". They sell "computer device which does lots of things easily. To ensure these things work properly, the nitty bits are secured away from you"
      - _qulr 6y ago
        > This is your problem. No, my problem is that Apple keeps changing the terms. The Mac that I purchased is no longer the Mac that I have. Apple now only provides 3 years of security updates for the OS that came with your Mac. You can't even buy an extended service contract! So then you're forced to "upgrade" the OS or else live with a bunch of known vulnerabilities. But every new version of the OS locks down the Mac even more. That's not what I paid for. Moreover, it was Apple's decision to start shipping major new OS versions on a yearly schedule. That's not how it was in the past. Mac OS X Jaguar lasted 14 months, Panther 18, Tiger 30, Leopard 22, Snow Leopard 23 months. But then Steve Jobs stepped down for health reasons, passed away, and Tim Cook "altered the deal".
arexxbifs 6y ago
> I wish the article had actually elaborated on the question posed in the title The answer is, as it has been for the last decade or so, "not yours even though you paid for it." > assuming the implications are obvious They are to me. Computers are great because we can control everything about them. Now we're not allowed to do so anymore, because the manufacturers said so. And, since a computer today is likely connected to the internet, control is more important than ever. Because if you're not in control, then who is? > I have a hard time figuring out why I’m so uncomfortable with Apple’s decision here. Maybe because they, like most other tech companies, go on and on about security and privacy while time and time again showing they do not actually give one single fuck whatsoever about it? > choose between a computer secured against Apple or one where you are secured against others Not quite sure I follow you. I'm pretty sure any Linux or *BSD box can be as firewalled as you like to as many parties as you like.
webmobdev 6y ago
> but I have a hard time figuring out why I’m so uncomfortable with Apple’s decision here. You are facing what marketers fear the most - a "cognitive dissonance". Basically, when words don't match deeds, you start questioning and start thinking instead of blindly believing someone. When customers start to do that, it creates a lot of headaches for brand managers and marketers because it implies that you are starting to lose trust in them, and that obviously doesn't bode well for a company's profit margins. With respect to Apple here, I have been quite vocal on HN for a long time that Apple has been repeatedly LYING to us that they care about our privacy. They absolutely do not. They are using the exact same tactic that Google used in the beginning - pretend to be trustworthy and than slowly change the terms and policy to mine our data for profit. In fact, Apple has been increasingly becoming more and more intrusive in mining our personal data. And their marketing narration has been to try to paint this as a good thing - that they are protecting our privacy by being the sole custodian of it, but you have to "trust" them to do the right thing.

pwdisswordfish4 6y ago

Why have no die-hard, many-times-burned Mac fans not yet picked up GNUStep and launchd and polished them into an acceptable replacement for the 2010-era Mac desktop? Most Mac developers don't seem to be that kind of developer. (So much for "Think different"?) It seems clear that the beatings are just going to continue.

morganvachon 6y ago
I think that ship sailed after Swift was released and Objective-C/Cocoa were deprecated.
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Objective-C and Cocoa are not deprecated.
  - morganvachon 6y ago
    I guess "deprecated" is a bit strong, but it's definitely on the way out, and Cocoa with it. https://sandofsky.com/architecture/objective-c-in-a-swift-world/ https://sandofsky.com/architecture/objective-c-in-a-swift-wo...
tl 6y ago
Personal investment into the platform has yielded professional returns. If that return dries up or frustrations continue to mount, you will see migration.
pjc50 6y ago
Those are opposite user experiences: the sealed, polished decisions made for you vs. gluing together obsolete technologies. And I say that as somebody who used to be a big WindowMaker fan.
schwartzworld 6y ago
I am not an apple fanboy, but I was under the impression that the major selling point of Apple is that you don't _need_ to be that kind of developer. A lot of things that are very fiddly on Linux just work on macos.

speeder 6y ago

Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions? Suppose I want to buy a OS or a computer+OS (like Mac), so not talking about Linux and FreeBSD and whatnot. Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me by taking away control under the guise of security?

morganvachon 6y ago
"Is there any proprietary OS that is NOT pulling these shenanigans in the lastest versions?" That's impossible to answer accurately, as by definition being proprietary means even if they say they don't, we can't verify it by seeing the code for ourselves. "Suppose I want to buy a OS or a computer+OS (like Mac), so not talking about Linux and FreeBSD and whatnot. Is there any OS that won't attempt to screw me by taking away control under the guise of security?" The short answer is "no", you cannot. However, you can indeed buy devices with no OS and load Linux (even Linux Certified devices from major OEMs), and even better you can buy a device from a Linux-first/Linux-only vendor like System 76, Think Penguin, Star Labs, etc. If Linux isn't your cup, OpenBSD is a strong contender for truly owning your equipment at the software level, as it is open source and well documented, with security as a major goal. Thinkpads and enterprise-class workstations fare best, but it also works great on older Macs.
- jancsika 6y ago
  > even Linux Certified devices from major OEMs I've got the XPS 13 from Dell that comes with Ubuntu pre-installed. AFAICT there's no shenanigans Dell is pulling wrt user data, phoning home, etc.
hinkley 6y ago
In some important ways, the computer you sit down in front of is at the mercy of the network that you attach it to. There are many things you can control about the computer if you control the machines it can talk to. A linux box running several pieces of software that the community works on to thwart this kind of misbehavior is something you can control, even if you can't control your Chromebook.

8bitsrule 6y ago

After the last Mac I bought (not to mention the first one) quickly developed a bad hard drive (ignored partitions) and then the display failed about 14 months into warranty (like hundreds of other owners reported on Apple's site forum - before they erased those complaints....) "I did some tests and I’ve found ..." that I could indeed live without a Mac. For a decade I did like Logic and Garageband, but not THAT much.

ChuckMcM 6y ago

This is another in a long line of examples where I am coming around to the conclusion that "computer" is not what we should call these application delivery vehicles. In the post mathematician, electronic version, of the world "computer" was used to represent a tool on which the owner (or lease holder) would run "software" that could use some, or all, of the machine. And what was more, the machine ONLY ever executed software that the owner asked it to execute either directly or through the requesting of library services. Systems that had computers in them, but ran applications written by the vendor so that the system could provide some function of value to the "owner" where always thought of as appliances. Perhaps the canonical example for our age is the Television, which has essentially one function "view video content" which is assisted by a control for selecting video content source. And yet, televisions today, have very powerful computer complexes within them that run vendor software. The modes breaks down for me when you combine them, both because the software the vendor provides for their "computer" to provide application like services is written to defend itself from change/influence by the owner who has access to the computer. From Apple's perspective, they are walking toward a world where one of the applications you can run on your device is "computer", which is nothing more than a virtual machine that you have virtually full control over (pun intended). IBM had a really great model of this called VM/370. Everything is a VM.

m463 6y ago
It is just a cash register or checkout line for the store owner. I will say two things give me hope. People on this site - technical people with the ability to make a difference - seem to be getting to the point where they care. Also, while reading the .pdf of the lawsuit against google, one of the key points is that you can't fork android or uninstall google software. I wonder if that might apply to google, and possibly transfer to apple. I would like to be able to install alternative "gatekeeper" software not created by apple.
- grishka 6y ago
  > Also, while reading the .pdf of the lawsuit against google, one of the key points is that you can't fork android or uninstall google software. Except you can and you don't need Google's permission to do it either. Many devices come with unlockable bootloaders, and all custom ROMs come without anything Google so you actually have to install Google apps manually should you want them.

pjc50 6y ago

A while ago I half-wrote an article on the warring factions for control. I have since posting this edited "the device owner" in at the top, because people have been misinterpreting the intent. 0 The device owner 0.5 The device user (not necesarily the purchaser) 1 Phishers, fraudsters, harassers 2 Governments, policemen, censors & spies 3 The media industry 4 The advertising and marketing industry 5 Platform holder (controller of the company store monopoly) 6 Manufacturer (may be the same as the platform holder or may be rivals) 7 Network operators (telcos or cable companies) Each has their own agenda and reasons for taking away control from the legitimate user. So far they seem to be stalemated.

machrider 6y ago
It's funny how the end user isn't even in the list.
- pjc50 6y ago
  I wrote "for taking away control from the legitimate user" at the end. I can't believe people are taking the worst possible interpretation of this, but I suppose that's HN. I have since posting this edited "the device owner" in at the top.
m463 6y ago
s/stalemated/winning/
Silhouette 6y ago
So far they seem to be stalemated. It's telling that you apparently didn't consider legitimate users a peer of the other factions fighting for control. Unfortunately, that just means the user is being abused by all of the others to varying degrees rather than one dominant abuser.
- pjc50 6y ago
  I wrote "for taking away control from the legitimate user" at the end and you didn't read that far. I have since posting this edited "the device owner" in at the top, because people have been misinterpreting the intent.

grishka 6y ago

So, anyway, is there any desktop OS that respects its user and where GUI isn't an afterthought? I keep thinking lately that maybe there needs to be an open-source reimplementation of the proprietary parts of macOS.

ViViDboarder 6y ago
ElementaryOS is probably the most prevalent one that is very UI focused in its design and very Apple-esq in it’s simplicity (and lack of options).
- grishka 6y ago
  And since it's Linux, whenever you want to use an app that didn't come with your distro the UX is meh to say the least.
  - noobermin 6y ago
    It's like people who make this argument never use third party apps on their macs or whatever.
LockAndLol 6y ago
Could you try and explain what you believe are the reasons are for the state of GUI frameworks on Linux? Additionally, I'd be interested in reading what it is you believe should be done to rectify what, in your opinion, is suboptimal.
smallstepforman 6y ago
Http://haiku-os.org

georgeecollins 6y ago

If I were trying to do something that I really needed to be secure-- really secure-- from companies and state actors, my instinct would be to start from Raspberry PI because I can control the software it boots from. Is that a bad idea?

ozten 6y ago
I think the Raspberry PI is awesome, but it is a big pile of closed source processing units that no-one completely understands. For example it boots from the GPU, not the CPU. Wow... I would use an "open as possible" hardware platform like those from Bunnie https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=28 https://www.bunniestudios.com/blog/?cat=28 for example. Novena Laptop https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena https://www.crowdsupply.com/sutajio-kosagi/novena
- metahost 6y ago
  > For example it boots from the GPU, not the CPU. Could you kindly point out a reference to this, I would love to read up on it.
  - ozten 6y ago
    Not a definitive source, but https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/14862/why-does-the-raspberry-pis-gpu-control-the-first-stages-of-the-boot-process https://raspberrypi.stackexchange.com/questions/14862/why-do...
    - georgeecollins 6y ago
      Based on this, it looks like Broadcom open sourced the drivers. Does that make the Raspberry Pi potentially secure?
      - jamesgeck0 6y ago
        No. If I understand correctly, we now know that the Raspberry Pi 3 can never be fully secured due to corners cut by Broadcom. https://github.com/christinaa/rpi-open-firmware/issues/37#issuecomment-388551489 https://github.com/christinaa/rpi-open-firmware/issues/37#is...

joshspankit 6y ago

This nonsense started the moment that we shifted in to licensing models and thus away from ownership models. Change my mind.

mr_toad 6y ago
We’ve had IP laws in some form since at least the 16th century, probably earlier.
- Silhouette 6y ago
  And which of those laws was written to allow hardware manufacturers to artificially limit what you could do with a product you had bought just because it happens to also have a software component? The corruption of copyright to serve entirely different purposes from its original intent, with the goal of artificially giving a manufacturer ongoing control of hardware products after purchase, is a buyer-hostile abuse of the legal framework that should have been comprehensively blocked long ago, whether it's related to your personal computer, your vehicle, your TV...
- joshspankit 6y ago
  Echoing @Silhouette’s comment: having IP laws has not meant (to my knowledge) that companies could dictate what a customer did with tangible goods that they purchased legally. Not until the past couple decades.

Wowfunhappy 6y ago

The real problem here is Big Sur's root snapshot system. Everything else, as far as I'm concerned, is fundamentally trivial to deal with. I've kept SIP turned off since it was introduced, and in the brief time I was using Catalina, I had a launchd job that ran at load to set the rootfs to read write. The computer was mine, and I edited plenty of system files like this. But Big Sur makes it all much harder, because changes to the root filesystem don't take effect until you reboot. That is really, persistently annoying! During early betas, some Macrumors users reported that if you powered off a computer at the right point during the install process, you'd end up with a version of Big Sur that didn't use a root snapshot. If there was a more consistent way to enable that, it would help a lot.

cma 6y ago
They are now using this stuff to force you to waste 2Gib on about 6 desktop wallpapers. The only user-doable solution that won't get undone at the next update seems to be to buy a new SSD with more storage to make up for it, for 2-3X the retail price of non-proprietary SSDs. For some reason they thought the stock wallpapers needed to change with the time of day and the way they implemented it takes hundreds of megs each. Then it is locked down by this system protect stuff so you can't get rid of them.

nbzso 6y ago

I use L Snitch from version one. After Catalina I plan to run offline mac for design, photography and video work connected to intranet/NAS. Everything that connects to outside network traffic will be properly run on linux boxes. This is the future. You will not own your data until you create a procedure to guard it as permitted by law. Apple is gone, you have now a different company working for shareholders only. Another step that I personally advocate to my friends is to use only software designed to run on multiple os hosts. I cannot risk some corporate decision motivated by pure greed to kill my workflow. Apple has a plan to close Mac Os completely, its their business to make more money by controlling the experience full circle. Thats why I overcome the lust factor and will not buy any Apple product anymore. If I need a camera - I will buy a camera, if I need a phone I will buy something that can be rooted and I have control over it. I expect in near future more commercial software to be made for linux and will pay good money for it without a moment of hesitation

Wowfunhappy 6y ago
> After Catalina I plan to run offline mac for design, photography and video work connected to intranet/NAS. Good luck. Keep in mind you won't be able to use any software that requires online activation (Adobe products, Sketch), and certainly none of the apps that won't launch without internet (Figma).
- nbzso 6y ago
  In my office I have chosen to invest in “no cloud” design software dependency. We don’t believe in collaborative UX/UI design workflow outside the office. We use our own code based workflow for prototyping. I am in design field 18 years, there is a way to deliver quality in pure form without using trending tools, cloud based plugins and direct collaboration. Convenience is not always the king. But this is strictly my decision and I don’t imply thats is for everyone.
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    I'd be very interested to hear what are you are using! Nothing from Adobe either?

reid 6y ago

On the other hand, I'm hoping this kind of thing allows Sidecar to work on Macs logged into VPNs.

tamaharbor 6y ago

Hunter Biden’s?

causality0 6y ago

I'm often faced with problems that would've been trivially easy to solve if I'd been dealing with them on 15-20 year old equipment and software. For example, the Google Assistant confirmation noise is ear-shatteringly loud and unpleasant. Facing a similar problem twenty years ago I could've just found the noise's audio file and deleted it, replaced it with something better, or even replaced it with a smaller-amplitude version of itself. In 2020 I can do absolutely nothing about this problem other than making my media volume so quiet I can't hear the things I actually want. My phone is mounted in the center of my dashboard but faces me in the driver seat. The phone's compass senses this. Google Maps senses this as well, and on a good day shows my arrow sliding sideways down the highway. On a bad day it becomes convinced I am either driving down the highway in reverse or am actually in the opposite lane, and falls all over itself trying to recalculate my route. I often fantasize about the compass being a plug-in unit that I could rip out and smash into powder with a hammer.

maheart 6y ago
This is why I use SailfishOS. Modern Android and iOS are so insanely complex, it seems impossible to do the simplest things with code. Yes you can root your phone, and you have access to (Android) source code including 3rd party FOSS apps and build tools. However, writing code, building, and iterating on the device is almost non-existent (I don't consider termux an ideal fit), not to mention the sandboxing/protections that are in place. The hacker spirit still seems very much alive in the SailfishOS community. The community isn't big, but people come up with smart ideas that leverage existing solutions. SSH in, write Python code, write QML, zypp install build tools, pip install libraries (inside virtualenv), execute it, see changes on screen, hook into the existing system using xdg standards and dbus, manage services with systemd. It's fun to hack on. If I had to characterise it, Android/iOS vs SailfishOS, is the equivalent to Java vs Python. The former is well-engineered, secure, perhaps overly architected, and widely used for "serious" and Enterprise solutions. It certainly has good reasons for how it does things. The latter is more organic; the same solutions can be achieved (with certain caveats) but with less hassle. From a developer perspective, Android and iOS have sucked all the fun and creativity out of the devices. * Sorry about piggybacking off top post, I just found that it strongly resonated what I've thought.

a9h74j 6y ago

Related comments (discussing "security" vs hardware repair) under a new video: Rossmann, "Serializing parts will destroy independent repair" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz2R7-zTdKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fz2R7-zTdKk

visarga 6y ago

You may fancy yourself a homeowner but you're just a guest in Apple Hotel.