5 ms·

Please, there are no additional costs for the employer. On paper yes, but from where do you think those "additional costs" are paid? Right, from the value an em

Please, there are no additional costs for the employer. On paper yes, but from where do you think those "additional costs" are paid? Right, from the value an employee creates.

premek 6y ago
and their salaries?
- ivanche 6y ago
  Employees salaries? They're paid because employees create some value for an employer. Where do you think money for salaries comes from anyway? I had a friend who owned a company at the time. His sole criteria for hiring was that net salary + taxes + health insurance + all additional costs (yes, even those "paid by employer") must be <= the money employee earns him.
ecmascript 6y ago
In Sweden, what you get paid isn't really your full salary. Sweden has a hidden tax system called "arbetsgivaravgift" which only the employer can see. It's hidden and not labeled as a tax because it tricks people into believing you're paying less taxes than you actually do. So when you think you're paying ~32% income tax, in reality it's closer to 50%.
- Denvercoder9 6y ago
  > It's hidden and not labeled as a tax because it tricks people into believing you're paying less taxes than you actually do. That's some conspiracy bullshit. The first Google hit for "arbetsgivaravgift" gives the site of the Swedish IRS-equivalent, where it's both clearly marked as a tax and the exact percentage is given.
  - magicalhippo 6y ago
    But the employee does not see it on their pay slip, unlike the regular taxes and pension. So when people (aka employees) talk about taxes it is rarely mentioned. In that regard it is a hidden tax. My boss told me he when thinking about our pay he considers the expense to the company to be about 2x what we get paid (pre-tax). So that's the "arbetsgivaravgift" (we got the same thing here in Norway) and pensions on top of our salary.
    - pengstrom 6y ago
      It's not paid by the worker, it's paid by the employer. There no more need to have it on the pay slip than any other per-employee expenses.
      - lultimouomo 6y ago
        Let's say I'm the king of Sweden, and I take back the power from that annoying parliament. I want to appease my people and show that I will rule in favor of the average Joe and against the big evil corporation. So I cut the personal income tax rate by 10%, and I raise the arbetsgivaravgift rate by 10%. Unless I also forbid renegotiating salaries, don't you think that after a short amount of time "gross" salaries (effectively salaries net of arbetsgivaravgift) will have adjusted and everything will be the same?
      - ivanche 6y ago
        If the worker doesn't earn for all these costs "paid by employer", the company would soon go bust.
    - wink 6y ago
      2x is a good ball park figure that's also true for Germany. Of course it's not strictly taxes, but material, hardware, rent... if you as an employee have a gross sum of 50k, the employer should calculate with up to 100k. If it's less, even better.
  - phil21 6y ago
    > That's some conspiracy bullshit. It's not a conspiracy at all. The US does it too with the employer portion of FICA. This is 15.3% for most employees. Hiding this tax that directly impacts what your cash paycheck will be is certainly political. But conspiracy? Not at all. It's like any other social nudging - keeping it out of sight and out of mind is absolutely on purpose and not really arguable. What is arguable is if it's justified.
  - bergstromm466 6y ago
    > That's some conspiracy bullshit. No it's not.
- davty 6y ago
  It's not really hidden though, and there is nothing preventing from it being displayed on payslips, it usually just isn't.
mongol 6y ago
It is still a cost.
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  Yes... one that is paid from the value the employee creates.
  - cwyers 6y ago
    The point here isn't how valuable the employee is, it's how much of a developer's time this donation buys.
    - bergstromm466 6y ago
      In this context are you saying that paying tax is a donation by the taxpayer/employee to the government?
      - cwyers 6y ago
        No. What I'm saying is that if you want to know how much developer time Debian's donation buys, you need to look at how much it costs Peertube to buy developer time, which includes all taxes Peertube must pay on employment, not just how much of that money shows up on the developer's paystub.
- ivanche 6y ago
  Yes, it is a cost which is paid solely by employees. Where do you think money for paying that cost comes from?
  - mongol 6y ago
    I never said anything about that. Just arguing against your false claim "there are no additional costs for the employer". If you mean something else, say that instead.

Please, there are no additional costs for the employer. On paper yes, but from where do you think those "additional costs" are paid? Right, from the value an employee creates.

premek 6y ago

and their salaries?

ivanche 6y ago
Employees salaries? They're paid because employees create some value for an employer. Where do you think money for salaries comes from anyway? I had a friend who owned a company at the time. His sole criteria for hiring was that net salary + taxes + health insurance + all additional costs (yes, even those "paid by employer") must be <= the money employee earns him.

ecmascript 6y ago

In Sweden, what you get paid isn't really your full salary. Sweden has a hidden tax system called "arbetsgivaravgift" which only the employer can see. It's hidden and not labeled as a tax because it tricks people into believing you're paying less taxes than you actually do. So when you think you're paying ~32% income tax, in reality it's closer to 50%.

Denvercoder9 6y ago
> It's hidden and not labeled as a tax because it tricks people into believing you're paying less taxes than you actually do. That's some conspiracy bullshit. The first Google hit for "arbetsgivaravgift" gives the site of the Swedish IRS-equivalent, where it's both clearly marked as a tax and the exact percentage is given.
- magicalhippo 6y ago
  But the employee does not see it on their pay slip, unlike the regular taxes and pension. So when people (aka employees) talk about taxes it is rarely mentioned. In that regard it is a hidden tax. My boss told me he when thinking about our pay he considers the expense to the company to be about 2x what we get paid (pre-tax). So that's the "arbetsgivaravgift" (we got the same thing here in Norway) and pensions on top of our salary.
  - pengstrom 6y ago
    It's not paid by the worker, it's paid by the employer. There no more need to have it on the pay slip than any other per-employee expenses.
    - lultimouomo 6y ago
      Let's say I'm the king of Sweden, and I take back the power from that annoying parliament. I want to appease my people and show that I will rule in favor of the average Joe and against the big evil corporation. So I cut the personal income tax rate by 10%, and I raise the arbetsgivaravgift rate by 10%. Unless I also forbid renegotiating salaries, don't you think that after a short amount of time "gross" salaries (effectively salaries net of arbetsgivaravgift) will have adjusted and everything will be the same?
    - ivanche 6y ago
      If the worker doesn't earn for all these costs "paid by employer", the company would soon go bust.
  - wink 6y ago
    2x is a good ball park figure that's also true for Germany. Of course it's not strictly taxes, but material, hardware, rent... if you as an employee have a gross sum of 50k, the employer should calculate with up to 100k. If it's less, even better.
- phil21 6y ago
  > That's some conspiracy bullshit. It's not a conspiracy at all. The US does it too with the employer portion of FICA. This is 15.3% for most employees. Hiding this tax that directly impacts what your cash paycheck will be is certainly political. But conspiracy? Not at all. It's like any other social nudging - keeping it out of sight and out of mind is absolutely on purpose and not really arguable. What is arguable is if it's justified.
- bergstromm466 6y ago
  > That's some conspiracy bullshit. No it's not.
davty 6y ago
It's not really hidden though, and there is nothing preventing from it being displayed on payslips, it usually just isn't.

mongol 6y ago

It is still a cost.

bergstromm466 6y ago
Yes... one that is paid from the value the employee creates.
- cwyers 6y ago
  The point here isn't how valuable the employee is, it's how much of a developer's time this donation buys.
  - bergstromm466 6y ago
    In this context are you saying that paying tax is a donation by the taxpayer/employee to the government?
    - cwyers 6y ago
      No. What I'm saying is that if you want to know how much developer time Debian's donation buys, you need to look at how much it costs Peertube to buy developer time, which includes all taxes Peertube must pay on employment, not just how much of that money shows up on the developer's paystub.
ivanche 6y ago
Yes, it is a cost which is paid solely by employees. Where do you think money for paying that cost comes from?
- mongol 6y ago
  I never said anything about that. Just arguing against your false claim "there are no additional costs for the employer". If you mean something else, say that instead.