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An Exam Surveillance Company Is Trying to Silence Critics with Lawsuits

169 points by Carducci 6y ago

Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago
Uhmm yeah this is just so wrong. Proctorio CEO Mike Olsen accused Linkletter of ... " potentially showing students ways to circumvent the software, thus risking the safety and security of the millions of students who use our platform.” Say what? In what way(s?) did his actions impact on the students' safety or security? The videos have been pulled but note that the CEO is talking about how showing people how to 'possibly' (his words not mine) circumvert the proctoring in any way shape or form affects the students' safety or security? [Edit for the pedantic, CEO said 'potentially' rather than 'possibly'.]
coldcode 6y ago
Why anyone would pay these folks anything is beyond me. While cheating is certainly a thing, and easier to do online, violating people's personal space and trusting in some average behavior BS to flag things as suspicious does not seem worth the cost. Add in ridiculous behavior by the company, if I were an educational institution I'd stay far away from these people. I remember reading about something similar being used to take screening tests for programmers which watched via the camera to ensure the test taker was not cheating; I'd tell any employer who wanted such a thing to get lost.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  The users don't pay. The overlords pay to inflict it on the users, like law enforcement.
- Wowfunhappy 6y ago
  I'm a little more sympathetic. I took the GRE this summer. Because of the pandemic, I used ETS's new (and temporary) at-home testing option. Someone from ProctorU watched me through my webcam the whole time, and it felt totally invasive and creepy. But, what else was the ETS supposed to do? For a high-stakes exam like the GRE, I don't think "trust people to not cheat" is a viable option. That isn't to say these remote proctoring solutions will necessarily prevent cheating either (and having now used one of these services, I think cheating would have been relatively easy), but it at least should make test takers think twice. I think we can all agree that an in-person exam would have been better, but the state of the world made that untenable.
  - gruez 6y ago
    >That isn't to say these remote proctoring solutions will necessarily prevent cheating either (and having now used one of these services, I think cheating would have been relatively easy), but it at least should make test takers think twice. Sounds like security theater. >I think we can all agree that an in-person exam would have been better, but the state of the world made that untenable. Why not? Just rent out a large open space (stadium, convention center, school gym), and space the students 20ft apart. The risk should be negligible. Let's be honest here, the real reason is that [cost of exam surveillance software] < [cost of conducting a physically distanced exam]
    - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
      > Sounds like security theater. I think a bit of security theater is exactly what's called for in this scenario. This isn't like hacking into a computer network, or bringing an explosive onto an airplane, where one dedicated bad actor can defeat the system for everyone. It's much closer to something like shoplifting, where your goal is to make instances of bad behavior as low as possible, given other constraints. A security camera does not need to be 100% effective to be worth installing—and doesn't even necessarily need to be turned on. A remotely-administered multiple-choice test is like a retail store without any staff, which asks customers to kindly leave money in a basket. You're much better off with even a single cashier, and even one who spends most of their day watching Netflix.
      - fdupress 6y ago
        People may not die if I cheat on my exam, but casting doubt on the accuracy of the results by eroding trust in the examination process certainly affects all who took the exam when they end up not getting a job.
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        Security theater doesn't apply evenly, however. I know a couple students who could pretty blatantly cheat without getting caught simply because they owned a second computer they could position in the right spot, and had a hardware disconnect on their microphone. People that aren't well-off or tech savvy are going to be at a significant "disadvantage" here.
- rootusrootus 6y ago
  > Why anyone would pay these folks anything is beyond me. Because they are worried about reputational damage from cheating. Even with tools like Proctorio, ProctorTrack, HonorLock, etc, the cheating rate is pretty high in programs like OMSCS.
  - gowld 6y ago
    The solution to that is so stop investing degrees with imaginary credibility, and hire people based on the hirers own assessments.
    - Nasrudith 6y ago
      That solution is existentially terrifying to them both in the "job depends upon not understanding it" sense and their very ideas of how they feel the world works/should work so are institutional non-starters until they are replaced one way or another (generationally or competition rendering them irrelevant).
throwaway2245 6y ago
This (for example) should be wildly illegal, if it isn't already: "[Proctorio CEO] Olsen posted a copy of the student’s chat logs" But also - colleges and universities should simply not be using this software. Students are not, in general, able to give active consent for such software to be used against their interest.
- dqv 6y ago
  It would be in the US since FERPA requires written permission to release student records, but who knows in Canada.
xphilter 6y ago
If there are any lawyers here, I'd love thoughts on whether these tools (used in employment/interview settings) violate 29 CFR § 801.4 - Prohibitions on lie detector use. (I know this article is about schools and in Canada). I've been thinking these tools do violate, but never filed a case alleging it (yet). Specifically, these anti-cheat "algorithms" seem to be "a polygraph, deceptograph, voice stress analyzer, psychological stress evaluator, or any other similar device (whether mechanical or electrical) that is used, or the results of which are used, for the purpose of rendering a diagnostic opinion regarding the honesty or dishonesty of an individual." I mean, the entire purpose is to determine if the prospective employee is honest. Any thoughts?
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  They aren't invasive physiological analyzers, and they aren't assessing honesty, they are detecting behaviors, so no.
  - xphilter 6y ago
    Detecting behaviors to assess what though? Isn't that exactly what a lie detector does? It claims to detect electrical signals of behaviors (stress) and then that goes to determine if the person is honest.
    - gowld 6y ago
      A lie detector does (claim to) not detect facts. It (claims to) detect psychological states via its physiological measurements, which is obviously what the law is talking about. No one would claim that fact-checking statements is a "lie detector" under this law.
  - vageli 6y ago
    Lying is a behavior, and cheating is dishonest.
    - klodolph 6y ago
rbecker 6y ago
> The purpose of this restraining order is simply to prevent the sharing of confidential information. How can information gathered from examining a publicly available product possibly be confidential?
opwieurposiu 6y ago
Make a small abstract painting. Hang it in background. Now if proctorio records video of you they are violating the copyright of your painting. Sue for ONE BILLION DOLLARS!
mhuffman 6y ago
Proctorio's support is also fucking absurd! It reflects their CEO's attitude in that article. I had an issue where their plugin, which only worked on chrome at the time IDK if that has changed, stopped working. And I had about 1 hour before my final exam. They went through the normal expected steps, then started recommending crazy shit! For example, they recommended that I delete all my bookmarks from my browser and "see if that works". And if it didn't, to re-install the operating system. Their other recommendation was to go buy another laptop -- in an hour! Then, they basically just said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I understand that there is only so much a phone tech can do in that situation, but these exams are very, very important. I am not sure I would have been able to get a waiver to take it at another time and could have ruined my GPA and been out thousands of dollars. Luckily I got it working on another computer that I had, so everything worked out in the end. I am not a fan!
908B64B197 6y ago
I wonder if the real issue is the format of the exams itself. Caltech had take-home exams for a long time and students still adhere to the honor code. We have pretty good tools for plagiarism detection. It's time to shift from rote learning exams to another format (essay, lab assignments for computer science). Else it's simply an arm race for cheating (soon some kid will just get an e-ink display in a picture frame and as soon as it goes out of the proctor's webcam field of view will turn into a cheat sheet).
- saagarjha 6y ago
  Caltech in general probably selects for students who are pretty self-motivated.
  - 908B64B197 6y ago
    They do. But at the same time, if you have to put draconian measures to discourage cheating as the last resort, maybe it's because the school is turning into a diploma mill and should review it's admission standards.
    - Nasrudith 6y ago
      Isn't the issue more that administrators are panicking over the loss of control from the pandemic causing a norms break and are pushing dubious anti-cheating software on everyone out of do-somethingism more than any amount of cheating sufficent for dillution of graduate quality? Granted the "value evaluation" gets a bit silly to begin with given that either they trust the name enough to use it as a filter regardless of its merit or lack of it or they ignore it entirely and go based off of their own assessment measures with their own sets of issues.
- gowld 6y ago
  How do you prevent someone from outsourcing an essay or computer science lab assignment?
  - 6y ago
tpoacher 6y ago
The crowdsourcing campaign mentioned in the article: https://ca.gofundme.com/f/stand-against-proctorio https://ca.gofundme.com/f/stand-against-proctorio
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

169 points by Carducci 6y ago

Pick-A-Hill2019 6y ago

Uhmm yeah this is just so wrong. Proctorio CEO Mike Olsen accused Linkletter of ... " potentially showing students ways to circumvent the software, thus risking the safety and security of the millions of students who use our platform.” Say what? In what way(s?) did his actions impact on the students' safety or security? The videos have been pulled but note that the CEO is talking about how showing people how to 'possibly' (his words not mine) circumvert the proctoring in any way shape or form affects the students' safety or security? [Edit for the pedantic, CEO said 'potentially' rather than 'possibly'.]

coldcode 6y ago

Why anyone would pay these folks anything is beyond me. While cheating is certainly a thing, and easier to do online, violating people's personal space and trusting in some average behavior BS to flag things as suspicious does not seem worth the cost. Add in ridiculous behavior by the company, if I were an educational institution I'd stay far away from these people. I remember reading about something similar being used to take screening tests for programmers which watched via the camera to ensure the test taker was not cheating; I'd tell any employer who wanted such a thing to get lost.

srtjstjsj 6y ago
The users don't pay. The overlords pay to inflict it on the users, like law enforcement.
Wowfunhappy 6y ago
I'm a little more sympathetic. I took the GRE this summer. Because of the pandemic, I used ETS's new (and temporary) at-home testing option. Someone from ProctorU watched me through my webcam the whole time, and it felt totally invasive and creepy. But, what else was the ETS supposed to do? For a high-stakes exam like the GRE, I don't think "trust people to not cheat" is a viable option. That isn't to say these remote proctoring solutions will necessarily prevent cheating either (and having now used one of these services, I think cheating would have been relatively easy), but it at least should make test takers think twice. I think we can all agree that an in-person exam would have been better, but the state of the world made that untenable.
- gruez 6y ago
  >That isn't to say these remote proctoring solutions will necessarily prevent cheating either (and having now used one of these services, I think cheating would have been relatively easy), but it at least should make test takers think twice. Sounds like security theater. >I think we can all agree that an in-person exam would have been better, but the state of the world made that untenable. Why not? Just rent out a large open space (stadium, convention center, school gym), and space the students 20ft apart. The risk should be negligible. Let's be honest here, the real reason is that [cost of exam surveillance software] < [cost of conducting a physically distanced exam]
  - Wowfunhappy 6y ago
    > Sounds like security theater. I think a bit of security theater is exactly what's called for in this scenario. This isn't like hacking into a computer network, or bringing an explosive onto an airplane, where one dedicated bad actor can defeat the system for everyone. It's much closer to something like shoplifting, where your goal is to make instances of bad behavior as low as possible, given other constraints. A security camera does not need to be 100% effective to be worth installing—and doesn't even necessarily need to be turned on. A remotely-administered multiple-choice test is like a retail store without any staff, which asks customers to kindly leave money in a basket. You're much better off with even a single cashier, and even one who spends most of their day watching Netflix.
    - fdupress 6y ago
      People may not die if I cheat on my exam, but casting doubt on the accuracy of the results by eroding trust in the examination process certainly affects all who took the exam when they end up not getting a job.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Security theater doesn't apply evenly, however. I know a couple students who could pretty blatantly cheat without getting caught simply because they owned a second computer they could position in the right spot, and had a hardware disconnect on their microphone. People that aren't well-off or tech savvy are going to be at a significant "disadvantage" here.
rootusrootus 6y ago
> Why anyone would pay these folks anything is beyond me. Because they are worried about reputational damage from cheating. Even with tools like Proctorio, ProctorTrack, HonorLock, etc, the cheating rate is pretty high in programs like OMSCS.
- gowld 6y ago
  The solution to that is so stop investing degrees with imaginary credibility, and hire people based on the hirers own assessments.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    That solution is existentially terrifying to them both in the "job depends upon not understanding it" sense and their very ideas of how they feel the world works/should work so are institutional non-starters until they are replaced one way or another (generationally or competition rendering them irrelevant).

throwaway2245 6y ago

This (for example) should be wildly illegal, if it isn't already: "[Proctorio CEO] Olsen posted a copy of the student’s chat logs" But also - colleges and universities should simply not be using this software. Students are not, in general, able to give active consent for such software to be used against their interest.

dqv 6y ago
It would be in the US since FERPA requires written permission to release student records, but who knows in Canada.

xphilter 6y ago

If there are any lawyers here, I'd love thoughts on whether these tools (used in employment/interview settings) violate 29 CFR § 801.4 - Prohibitions on lie detector use. (I know this article is about schools and in Canada). I've been thinking these tools do violate, but never filed a case alleging it (yet). Specifically, these anti-cheat "algorithms" seem to be "a polygraph, deceptograph, voice stress analyzer, psychological stress evaluator, or any other similar device (whether mechanical or electrical) that is used, or the results of which are used, for the purpose of rendering a diagnostic opinion regarding the honesty or dishonesty of an individual." I mean, the entire purpose is to determine if the prospective employee is honest. Any thoughts?

srtjstjsj 6y ago
They aren't invasive physiological analyzers, and they aren't assessing honesty, they are detecting behaviors, so no.
- xphilter 6y ago
  Detecting behaviors to assess what though? Isn't that exactly what a lie detector does? It claims to detect electrical signals of behaviors (stress) and then that goes to determine if the person is honest.
  - gowld 6y ago
    A lie detector does (claim to) not detect facts. It (claims to) detect psychological states via its physiological measurements, which is obviously what the law is talking about. No one would claim that fact-checking statements is a "lie detector" under this law.
- vageli 6y ago
  Lying is a behavior, and cheating is dishonest.
  - klodolph 6y ago

rbecker 6y ago

> The purpose of this restraining order is simply to prevent the sharing of confidential information. How can information gathered from examining a publicly available product possibly be confidential?

opwieurposiu 6y ago

Make a small abstract painting. Hang it in background. Now if proctorio records video of you they are violating the copyright of your painting. Sue for ONE BILLION DOLLARS!

mhuffman 6y ago

Proctorio's support is also fucking absurd! It reflects their CEO's attitude in that article. I had an issue where their plugin, which only worked on chrome at the time IDK if that has changed, stopped working. And I had about 1 hour before my final exam. They went through the normal expected steps, then started recommending crazy shit! For example, they recommended that I delete all my bookmarks from my browser and "see if that works". And if it didn't, to re-install the operating system. Their other recommendation was to go buy another laptop -- in an hour! Then, they basically just said ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I understand that there is only so much a phone tech can do in that situation, but these exams are very, very important. I am not sure I would have been able to get a waiver to take it at another time and could have ruined my GPA and been out thousands of dollars. Luckily I got it working on another computer that I had, so everything worked out in the end. I am not a fan!

908B64B197 6y ago

I wonder if the real issue is the format of the exams itself. Caltech had take-home exams for a long time and students still adhere to the honor code. We have pretty good tools for plagiarism detection. It's time to shift from rote learning exams to another format (essay, lab assignments for computer science). Else it's simply an arm race for cheating (soon some kid will just get an e-ink display in a picture frame and as soon as it goes out of the proctor's webcam field of view will turn into a cheat sheet).

saagarjha 6y ago
Caltech in general probably selects for students who are pretty self-motivated.
- 908B64B197 6y ago
  They do. But at the same time, if you have to put draconian measures to discourage cheating as the last resort, maybe it's because the school is turning into a diploma mill and should review it's admission standards.
  - Nasrudith 6y ago
    Isn't the issue more that administrators are panicking over the loss of control from the pandemic causing a norms break and are pushing dubious anti-cheating software on everyone out of do-somethingism more than any amount of cheating sufficent for dillution of graduate quality? Granted the "value evaluation" gets a bit silly to begin with given that either they trust the name enough to use it as a filter regardless of its merit or lack of it or they ignore it entirely and go based off of their own assessment measures with their own sets of issues.
gowld 6y ago
How do you prevent someone from outsourcing an essay or computer science lab assignment?
- 6y ago

tpoacher 6y ago

The crowdsourcing campaign mentioned in the article: https://ca.gofundme.com/f/stand-against-proctorio https://ca.gofundme.com/f/stand-against-proctorio

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]