6 ms·

I live in Sweden too. Is that true? I thought it was more around 4k EUR. Or am I being lowballed here...

by ordo_inf 6y ago

renke1 6y ago
10k for the average developer (in Europe) sounds a bit too high, 4k a bit too low, but closer to what I would expect.
- tpxl 6y ago
  A lot of Europe is the balkans and the east where I'd be surprised if the average employer cost for a decent developer exceeds 2k/month.
  - renke1 6y ago
    True, I should have said most of Western/Northern Europe, I guess. Edit: Actually, Europe is so diverse that any blanket statement is mostly worthless.
cpach 6y ago
Oh I meant in terms of cost for the employer. As they have to pay additional taxes on top of the salary. E.g. the so called “employer’s fee” and pension fees (tjänstepension) and stuff like that. BTW, if you want to go into details, feel free to shoot me an email.
- usr1106 6y ago
  The additional mandatory fees are around 30% https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbetsgivaravgifter_i_Sverige https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbetsgivaravgifter_i_Sverig... So with 4 kEUR gross salary you end up at 5.2 kEUR cash costs. Then there are also non-cash costs, like 5 weeks of paid holidays (or did unions actually achieve the 6th one? It's 30 years I lived in Sweden...) And you might need an office, equipment, and what not. So the cost can easily be 6-7 kEUR even if the developer sees only 4 kEUR on their payslip. A few might earn (significantly) more. But that's more likely in corporations higher levels than for open source related development work.
  - mongol 6y ago
    Yes. An employer must also take into account the average sick time per employee and year, since it pays for sick pay day 2 - 14 when the employee is sick. That is an another contribution to the 2x ballpark number.
    - usr1106 6y ago
      In Germany you pay/get 13 - 14 monthly salaries per year. In Finland 12.65. Don't know the figure for Sweden, but I'm pretty sure it's > 12.
- ivanche 6y ago
  Please, there are no additional costs for the employer. On paper yes, but from where do you think those "additional costs" are paid? Right, from the value an employee creates.
  - premek 6y ago
    and their salaries?
    - ivanche 6y ago
      Employees salaries? They're paid because employees create some value for an employer. Where do you think money for salaries comes from anyway? I had a friend who owned a company at the time. His sole criteria for hiring was that net salary + taxes + health insurance + all additional costs (yes, even those "paid by employer") must be <= the money employee earns him.
  - ecmascript 6y ago
    In Sweden, what you get paid isn't really your full salary. Sweden has a hidden tax system called "arbetsgivaravgift" which only the employer can see. It's hidden and not labeled as a tax because it tricks people into believing you're paying less taxes than you actually do. So when you think you're paying ~32% income tax, in reality it's closer to 50%.
    - Denvercoder9 6y ago
      > It's hidden and not labeled as a tax because it tricks people into believing you're paying less taxes than you actually do. That's some conspiracy bullshit. The first Google hit for "arbetsgivaravgift" gives the site of the Swedish IRS-equivalent, where it's both clearly marked as a tax and the exact percentage is given.
      - magicalhippo 6y ago
        But the employee does not see it on their pay slip, unlike the regular taxes and pension. So when people (aka employees) talk about taxes it is rarely mentioned. In that regard it is a hidden tax. My boss told me he when thinking about our pay he considers the expense to the company to be about 2x what we get paid (pre-tax). So that's the "arbetsgivaravgift" (we got the same thing here in Norway) and pensions on top of our salary.
3np 6y ago
Sweden's great at obfuscating how high effective income tax actually is; payroll tax ("arbetsgivaravgift") and social fees are charged on the employer's side and never seen on your payslip (and are, depending on income, almost comparable to income tax). That's not even accounting for non-salary costs. ~7-8k EUR effective cost for 1 person-month sounds about right to me.
ecmascript 6y ago
If you work in Stockholm you could easily get closer to 5k or even above that if you have some experience. If you work somewhere else the figure could be smaller.

I live in Sweden too. Is that true? I thought it was more around 4k EUR. Or am I being lowballed here...

renke1 6y ago

10k for the average developer (in Europe) sounds a bit too high, 4k a bit too low, but closer to what I would expect.

tpxl 6y ago
A lot of Europe is the balkans and the east where I'd be surprised if the average employer cost for a decent developer exceeds 2k/month.
- renke1 6y ago
  True, I should have said most of Western/Northern Europe, I guess. Edit: Actually, Europe is so diverse that any blanket statement is mostly worthless.

cpach 6y ago

Oh I meant in terms of cost for the employer. As they have to pay additional taxes on top of the salary. E.g. the so called “employer’s fee” and pension fees (tjänstepension) and stuff like that. BTW, if you want to go into details, feel free to shoot me an email.

usr1106 6y ago
The additional mandatory fees are around 30% https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbetsgivaravgifter_i_Sverige https://sv.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arbetsgivaravgifter_i_Sverig... So with 4 kEUR gross salary you end up at 5.2 kEUR cash costs. Then there are also non-cash costs, like 5 weeks of paid holidays (or did unions actually achieve the 6th one? It's 30 years I lived in Sweden...) And you might need an office, equipment, and what not. So the cost can easily be 6-7 kEUR even if the developer sees only 4 kEUR on their payslip. A few might earn (significantly) more. But that's more likely in corporations higher levels than for open source related development work.
- mongol 6y ago
  Yes. An employer must also take into account the average sick time per employee and year, since it pays for sick pay day 2 - 14 when the employee is sick. That is an another contribution to the 2x ballpark number.
  - usr1106 6y ago
    In Germany you pay/get 13 - 14 monthly salaries per year. In Finland 12.65. Don't know the figure for Sweden, but I'm pretty sure it's > 12.
ivanche 6y ago
Please, there are no additional costs for the employer. On paper yes, but from where do you think those "additional costs" are paid? Right, from the value an employee creates.
- premek 6y ago
  and their salaries?
  - ivanche 6y ago
    Employees salaries? They're paid because employees create some value for an employer. Where do you think money for salaries comes from anyway? I had a friend who owned a company at the time. His sole criteria for hiring was that net salary + taxes + health insurance + all additional costs (yes, even those "paid by employer") must be <= the money employee earns him.
- ecmascript 6y ago
  In Sweden, what you get paid isn't really your full salary. Sweden has a hidden tax system called "arbetsgivaravgift" which only the employer can see. It's hidden and not labeled as a tax because it tricks people into believing you're paying less taxes than you actually do. So when you think you're paying ~32% income tax, in reality it's closer to 50%.
  - Denvercoder9 6y ago
    > It's hidden and not labeled as a tax because it tricks people into believing you're paying less taxes than you actually do. That's some conspiracy bullshit. The first Google hit for "arbetsgivaravgift" gives the site of the Swedish IRS-equivalent, where it's both clearly marked as a tax and the exact percentage is given.
    - magicalhippo 6y ago
      But the employee does not see it on their pay slip, unlike the regular taxes and pension. So when people (aka employees) talk about taxes it is rarely mentioned. In that regard it is a hidden tax. My boss told me he when thinking about our pay he considers the expense to the company to be about 2x what we get paid (pre-tax). So that's the "arbetsgivaravgift" (we got the same thing here in Norway) and pensions on top of our salary.

3np 6y ago

Sweden's great at obfuscating how high effective income tax actually is; payroll tax ("arbetsgivaravgift") and social fees are charged on the employer's side and never seen on your payslip (and are, depending on income, almost comparable to income tax). That's not even accounting for non-salary costs. ~7-8k EUR effective cost for 1 person-month sounds about right to me.

ecmascript 6y ago

If you work in Stockholm you could easily get closer to 5k or even above that if you have some experience. If you work somewhere else the figure could be smaller.