9 ms·
Why does Instagram continue to store and use all of my contacts?
- megraf 6y agodon't worry, I'm sure it's a 'bug' that they've just been made aware of.
- whalesalad 6y ago"never attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity" could go either way tbh
- Nextgrid 6y agoWhen it comes to Facebook this statement should be reversed unless stupidity is explicitly proven or is contrary to the bottom line (as in it causes them to gather less data about people).
- stevenjohns 6y agoThat applies to individuals, not companies. With groups like Facebook it is “always assume bad faith,” because it always is.
- tshaddox 6y agoYeah, same with governments. And I think Hanson’s razor is generally a pretty bad rule of thumb, considering that negligence is essentially malicious anyway.
- yjftsjthsd-h 6y agoYeah, in some cases I have started going with "this might be malice and it might be incompetence, but since the behavior is the same either way who cares?"
- beervirus 6y ago> negligence is essentially malicious The definition of negligence is that it isn't malicious.
- tshaddox 6y agoI'm not really attempting to use precise legal terms, because those vary a lot. For instance, "actual malice" in US libel law doesn't require intention or desire to harm (the normal dictionary definition of "malice"), but can simply be negligence (making a statement with a "reckless disregard of whether it was false or not"). My point is that, if you ought to have done something, and you didn't, you're culpable. And I would certainly use the word "malice" (in the everyday sense, not in all legal contexts) to describe someone who knows they are cutting corners that might have damaging consequences, but cuts corners anyway. I think it's malicious to harm or endanger other people to make a buck.
- malloreon 6y agocompanies are groups of individuals with the same purpose and aligned incentives. don't let individuals off the hook just because they work for a particular company. if that company operates in bad faith, its employees do too.
- crispyporkbites 6y agoI thought Facebook only hires the greatest engineers known to man?
- fennecfoxen 6y agoFacebook hires many of the greatest engineers known to man, and has them build things like HHVM so that others of their engineers can hack on monstrosities in almost-PHP. You're going to see both good and bad Facebook engineers.
- TeMPOraL 6y ago"Never attribute to stupidity that which can be adequately explained by systemic incentives promoting malice." Hanlon's Handgun. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21691282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=21691282
- ebg13 6y agoI thought it got renamed! https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24498134 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24498134
- Footkerchief 6y ago"Never attribute to engineering that which is adequately explained by marketing"
- bigbubba 6y agoHanlon's razor needs to die, it extoles gullibility to the delight of every abuser with more than two brain cells. Even young children instinctively figure out the 'it was merely an accident' excuse for their misbehavior. Following Hanlon's razor would have you outwitted by toddlers.
- nobody9999 6y ago>Even young children instinctively figure out the 'it was merely an accident' excuse for their misbehavior. Following Hanlon's razor would have you outwitted by toddlers. Hanlon's Razor is absolutely valid. That said, I'd posit that stupidity isn't accidental and shouldn't be excused. Rather it should be stomped on just as hard as malice since, as others have pointed out, the effect is the same.
- learnstats2 6y agoHaving worked in politics, where Hanlon's Razor is often used to excuse malice, I'd suggest it is not valid. People have reasons for acting incompetently - often those reasons are because the system is set up to enable that, in one way or another. And it's most often the case that system has been set up intentionally in that way (or has been manipulated to get that outcome) - there's malice in the organisational big picture. The effect is the same and the cause is the same as well.
- jennyyang 6y agoPeople in Europe need to keep hammering US companies with GDPR violations relentlessly. At some point, if a company keeps violating GDPR, do the executives become criminally responsible? If not, they should be. I wish the US had something similar at this point.
- Nextgrid 6y agoGDPR enforcement is severely lacking despite there being enough evidence of breaches.
- freehunter 6y agoAgreed. I work in information security (risk, compliance, and governance) for a EU-based company and we have a ton of “our lawyers said X” and “we interpret GDPR as Y” kind of policies because there have not been enough court cases to really understand what GDPR actually means. From a security and privacy standpoint I think it’s got great potential but there are too many open questions about enforcement and it muddies actual compliance.
- llarsson 6y agoCalifornia is currently getting a similar regulation. And what California does will have lasting effect in the rest of the US as well.
- jonahhorowitz 6y agoCCPA isn't as strong as GDPR[0]. Also, not sure if you're referring to Prop 24, but it's terrible[1] for various reasons, including that it can't be updated by the legislature. [0] - https://iapp.org/media/pdf/resource_center/CCPA_GDPR_Chart_PracticalLaw_2019.pdf https://iapp.org/media/pdf/resource_center/CCPA_GDPR_Chart_P... [1] - https://www.theleaguesf.org/#Prop24 https://www.theleaguesf.org/#Prop24
- fsflover 6y agohttps://ruben.verborgh.org/facebook/#history https://ruben.verborgh.org/facebook/#history
- JulianWasTaken 6y agoThis has been obvious to me for years, even without the direct notifications to follow someone particularly. I uploaded a subset of my contacts to IG pre-Facebook acquisition, must have been ~5 years ago, and to this day I get follow suggestions (that I've never clicked on) which one would have no reason to believe are good unless that data was retained (e.g. for contacts who are not "mutually well connected" with other people I follow).
- luma 6y agoAlternately, they also have FB/IG accounts and had you in their saved contacts.
- klvino 6y agoFirst off, not advocating a position just providing background. The interpretation of GDPR by certain companies is that when someone requests "data deletion", they are to delete the association of the data points to "known identifiers" and are not required to delete the data itself. As the user has decided to disconnect their association, the data remains in the hands of the organization for analysis, look-a-like modeling, etc etc. Scenario 1 - Insta didn't fully delete the associations according to policy and thus one of their processes is still linking the contacts. Scenario 2 - Even with disconnected data associations, the ability of Insta to re-identify you was too easy and thus the contacts are showing up. Either scenario shouldn't be viable under GDPR. If you're in the US, you're SOL (CCPA isn't as robust as GDPR and focuses more on 'data sale' and less on data privacy & protection).
- Razengan 6y agoInstagram also secretly accessed your camera, until exposed by iOS 14: https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/25/instagram-unexpectedly-accessing-camera/ https://www.macrumors.com/2020/07/25/instagram-unexpectedly-...
- dhimes 6y agoYikes! Edit: IG's claim was that the indicator light was a bug (erroneously indicating that the camera was in use), but the app wasn't actually accessing the camera.
- beervirus 6y agoDoes anyone believe Facebook when they say this is just a bug and no data was harvested?
- johnisgood 6y agoFrankly, given their track record and incentives, no one should ever believe that.
- jahlove 6y agoAnd lets not forget that Facebook used your 2FA mobile phone number as a piece of information used to target you with ads: https://gizmodo.com/facebook-is-giving-advertisers-access-to-your-shadow-co-1828476051 https://gizmodo.com/facebook-is-giving-advertisers-access-to...
- sushicalculus 6y agoThis is a good reminder that I need to review my mobile's privacy settings
- learnstats2 6y agoIt's also a reminder that your mobile's current privacy settings don't matter. If Instagram/Facebook/Whatsapp have ever had access to your contacts - even inadvertently - you essentially can't undo this.
- johnisgood 6y agoNot only that, but I do not know of an open source phone that is commercially available and has been audited to not do nasty things behind your back. I am not sure about the progress of Librem, and it is a sad state that we only have that, or will have that. Those phones are spy devices, I look at them as I look at Windows 10. I am never, ever, going to trust it. When I take a photo, I expect at least the thumbnail of it to get on some server. Am I too paranoid? With Google, or Chinese crap, I do not think so. Of course you could take a similar argument or stance when it comes to desktop, and indeed, just look at all those CPU vulnerabilities. I think technology is at a really sad state. Most things are closed source (what does your keyboard do?![1]), and we have no goddamn way of knowing what is happening behind our back unless someone reverse engineers it, but the fact that it has to be done is an issue to me. [1] https://thehackernews.com/2017/11/mantistek-keyboard-keylogger.html https://thehackernews.com/2017/11/mantistek-keyboard-keylogg... or https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/158805/how-to-detect-a-keylogger-in-a-usb-keyboard-can-a-usb-keyboard-host-a-keylogger https://security.stackexchange.com/questions/158805/how-to-d... but yeah you could just search for it. Regardless, besides the point. :)
- Hnrobert42 6y agoThat’s not true. We add more contacts over time. The best time to plant a tree is 20 years ago. The next best time is now.
- kzrdude 6y agoOne can't really un-release one's contacts to one of these data gobbling companies. Even then, I appreciate that we are raising this issue. It should be clear to anyone here that the moment to act on this is before your contacts get copied, not trying to get them un-copied later. Think of it as a betrayal of your contacts, that you sell them out (then ponder the likelihood that none of yours have done the same, it's probably infinitesimal.)
- mdoms 6y agoContacts change over time.
- dheera 6y agoI solve this issue by simply not using the contacts feature on my phone. I just store phone numbers in a text file and memorize the 2 or 3 that I need to contact often.. Ironic, I know, but that's what it has come to. Welcome to 2020. In the vast majority of cases I just don't need to call most people. I mostly stick between instant messaging and (during pandemic) video calls and (non-pandemic) in-person meetings and just avoid the awkward middle ground of audio-but-no-video phone calls.
- shock 6y agoOpenContacts in F-Droid.
- Scarbutt 6y agoThe problem I see with this is that now you don't know who's calling you and stuff like whatsapp will get annoying.
- o-__-o 6y agoAnd your friends are still using apps that harvest YOUR contact data. So your contact graph is still determinable. When I changed my phone I decided to not give out my new number. Now all of the spam calls come in on my Google Voice number that I share with everyone and I only share my iMessage with specific people I trust.
- merrvk 6y agoContacts should never have been so easily available as a simple, single permission.
- Larrikin 6y agoThe idea behind allowing apps to see your contacts was sound, I'm on an app that works better when my contacts are connected to me. Whether its a social network, a game, a fitness app, etc there are many obviously good uses for the end user. Going further it was pretty awesome years ago when there were apps that would connect your contacts to your Facebook friends and they would sync things like birthdays and their profile pictures back to my contacts. The issue is that some asshole had the genius idea of trying to monetize and spam the contacts once they were given and other assholes followed suit. I would never give the 2 way sync permission to some random app anymore and I almost never give the contact permission to bigger apps as well. What I hope is that eventually there becomes some way to determine if my contacts also use an app without the app knowing they are my contacts nor giving up the information of contacts not on the app. That seems like a hard but not impossible task. Eventually I'd like there to be a safe way to return to the 2 way sync, but I'm not sure if that is even possible.
- ubercow13 6y agoDo people’s phone contacts generally align with who they want to be associated with in any apps? Why would I (an average social media user) want my boss, my driving instructor, other professional contacts, my ex wife, personal trainer, therapist, doctor, etc. to be automatically linked to and recommended my social media accounts? I find the whole concept strange.
- Larrikin 6y agoYou don't have to add every single person that is a contact, you'd just be able to see they are connectable. Maybe I would like to connect on FitBit with my personal trainer but not on Instagram or Pokemon Go. Anyone I consider a friend that I didn't meet online I will always have their phone number, even if that isn't my primary form of communication with them. A phone call will always go through without regards to any data limits and is less spotty in areas with bad service. I'd love it to be a standard so that social networks could also be connected together in a similar asymmetrical way but that would require even more cooperation from people proven to be bad actors.
- tinus_hn 6y agoOn iOS it doesn’t even ask for access to that.
- smegcicle 6y agoif the contact list is beads and trinkets, and instagram is a european settler party, than jontyusborne is an indian giver
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- bosswipe 6y agoI have a related story, WhatsApp permanently banned my account after I refused to give it contacts permission. Longer story: I went to create my first ever WhatsApp account after I was invited to a friends group chat. I downloaded the Android app but, being aware of Facebook apps' thirst for slurping up all your contacts, I made sure to repeatedly deny contacts permission even though the app was annoyingly insistent that it needed to have it. I only wanted to access this one group chat so I didn't see why it needed it. After maybe 20 minutes in the group chat Whatsapp permanently banned my account. Appeals have been denied. I have now been unsuccesfully trying to convince the group of 30+ people to switch to a different platform so I can participate :(
- freehunter 6y agoIf I had to guess I’d say they banned your account for some other reason (doesn’t have to be a good reason, just some other bad reason) because I have the exact same situation (I use WhatsApp for just one group and nothing else and denied access to my contacts) and my account isn’t banned. If they had a policy of banning everyone who doesn’t allow access to contacts, I wouldn’t be allowed back in the chat.
- junon 6y agoNot that Telegram is the most secure thing on the planet, but it has feature parity with Whatsapp for the most part and supports groups perfectly, in my opinion. It's a much easier sell, I think. Plus it's definitely more secure than Whatsapp.
- rootsudo 6y agoThe best way is to generate fake numbers and add them all to confuse the algo. https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cklee.contactsgenerator&hl=en_US&gl=US https://play.google.com/store/apps/details?id=com.cklee.cont... Haven't tried this app, and it may be more horrid do install an app but the only other way I was thinking was manually via CSV and generate it with dummy data from some other misc data on the web.... I should do it actually. It helps break the addicting nature of social media apps and ruins the networking effect. -- https://code.lardcave.net/entries/2012/04/22/135057/ https://code.lardcave.net/entries/2012/04/22/135057/ This is really cool and covers the exact issue, but with resolving it by creating TWO contact books!
- dheera 6y agoIf you actually want to mess with the algo you probably need to have partially real and partially fake data, or disruptive data such as rotating the names, e-mail address, and phone numbers within the same contact list so that they don't correspond to each other. Outlier rejection of completely random data for these sort of graph-connected networks is exceedingly easy and unlikely to screw up their algo.
- johnisgood 6y agoDo you know of an app that does that? I do not know much about Android development, maybe this should be my first project? It is always easy to unfuck it, just delete all contacts, and import your actual contacts with their correct details from a file you exported and backed up. But... for how long do you have to keep the fake contacts and whatnot?
- spurgu 6y agoBecause they can.
- vmception 6y agoNever connect your contacts Never use an email user id you’ve given to other people Never use a phone number user id you’ve given to other people Try to only use app based 2 factor and not SMS based because you have to give it a phone number which they will untrustworthily reuse eventually to generate a social graph This breaks the social graph Facebook will ban you for this within 10 minutes, Instagram will not
- compiler-guy 6y agoI have done all these things and am not banned from facebook.
- kovvy 6y agoI'm close to this, and if I make an Instagram account it's banned before a single page is loaded.
- vmception 6y agoYou might have your IMEI banned
- surround 6y agoAlso: if you add your phone number to Snapchat, you cannot remove it.