6 ms·

In Dune, Paul Atreides led a jihad, not a crusade

50 points by AndrewBissell 6y ago

boltefnovor 6y ago
It’s extremely wimpy and limp that they changed it to crusade from jihad. Holy heck what difference would it have made?
- libraryatnight 6y ago
  Verbal tiptoeing has become an absolute bore. An exhausting bore.
- jfengel 6y ago
  It's more accurate to the book. The word appears only in the trailer. In the book, it's "jihad", which fits in the many other Arabic-derived words, like Muad'dib (مؤدب, "teacher") and gom jabbar (جبار, "powerful").
phobosanomaly 6y ago
This is a very 2003 argument. The United States has pivoted away from being scared of the Middle East, and the religious culture wars of that era are over. Nobody's buying God Delusion at Border's Books anymore. "Today, only 43% of Americans identify as white and Christian, and only 30% as white and Protestant." "Nearly one in four (24%) Americans are now religiously unaffiliated." And it's going in a pretty clear direction. "Conversely, only about one-quarter of young adults (age 18-29) belong to a white Christian tradition, including white evangelical Protestant (8%), white mainline Protestant (8%), or white Catholic (6%)." https://www.prri.org/research/american-religious-landscape-christian-religiously-unaffiliated/ https://www.prri.org/research/american-religious-landscape-c... From the article: "Unlike many of his, or our, contemporaries, Herbert was willing to imagine a world that was not based on Western, Christian mythology." I would say, rather, now more than any other recent time in American history, people are 'willing to imagine a world that was not based on Western, Christian mythology.' The author works on Sufism at UPenn (which is undoubtedly fascinating - would love to sign up for one of his classes), but I think he might benefit from looking at the world through a lens that isn't colored exclusively by religion.
- touristtam 6y ago
  > The United States has pivoted away from being scared of the Middle East If you look at conservative Hollywood, it hasn't. Arabs and/or Muslim are still the obvious baddies in the cultural representation of the USA centric view of the world through the film industry in North America.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    I dunno, the latest Bond films, Tenet, John Wick, Inception, the Marvel Series, the Kingsmen series, etc. I think we're moving away from it. Maybe I just haven't seen enough new movies though, that could definitely be a possibility.
globular-toast 6y ago
I wonder if they will mention the Butlerian jihad, or will that be labelled a "revolution"?
- im3w1l 6y ago
  Kids these days can't relate to butlers. Uber driver revolution?
  - avar 6y ago
    The "Butler" in Butlerian Jihad is a reference to a person whose surname is "Butler". It wasn't started by a bunch of butlers: https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Jehanne_Butler https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Jehanne_Butler
    - im3w1l 6y ago
      I knew that
    - MaanuAir 6y ago
      I just learnt this reference comes from the Dune Encyclopedia. Until now, I only knew the character of "Serena Butler" instead, coming from the more recent Brian Herbert's & Kevin J. Anderson's prequel novels. This one actually: https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Serena_Butler https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Serena_Butler Another trait of such a rich universe, indeed!
biolurker1 6y ago
Main reason he didn't want it
SigmundA 6y ago
Will be interesting to see if they ever say the word jihad in the movie, but using the word crusade still fits, after all this is directly from the books appendices: >JIHAD: a religious crusade; fanatical crusade. >JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt)—the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G.
_qulr 6y ago
This is so silly. In the book, spice was a metaphor for oil. Herbert said so himself. Dune was set in the far future, but it was very much about the (1960s) present too. The Middle Eastern themes were there for a reason. Just wait until they read the passage in Dune Messiah where Paul compares himself to Hitler and Genghis Khan, while Stilgar and Korba refuse to believe it.
dr-detroit 6y ago
You've committed the classic blunder of applying 2020 Nuspeak to a book from the 20th century. The distinction between Jihad(a badwrong) and Crusade(a good source of warm dopamine feelings) didn't exist as it does in our lexicon today.
cafard 6y ago
Atreus somehow is not one of those names that puts me in mind of Christianity or Islam, either one.
jeegsy 6y ago
Who cares? Is there a word for this sort of writing in which current sensibilities are applied to older works in an attempt to "educate" people about a book that everyone read? > "Unlike many of his, or our, contemporaries, Herbert was willing to imagine a world that was not based on Western, Christian mythology." Again, who cares?
- webmaven 6y ago
  > Who cares? Is there a word for this sort of writing in which current sensibilities are applied to older works in an attempt to "educate" people about a book that everyone read? The post is basically saying "book that was massively popular at the time and is still popular actually holds up quite well when examined with current sensibilities in mind". It's also saying "don't jettison one of the things that make it great even when examined with contemporary sensibilities". It's the opposite of a takedown, and given that this sort of judgement is the exception rather than the rule[0], it's nice to have confirmation that I can continue to recommend Dune to new readers. So, I care. [0] I still love the LotR for example, but it is rather racist, quite overtly in places.
woah 6y ago
Dune is a story about a chosen son of nobility, coming from a very Europe-like planet to rule over a very Middle East-like planet where everything has Arabic-sounding names. He is somehow instantly accepted as a messiah by the local band of noble savages and, along with his family’s mercenaries, leads them in a “holy war” against his personal enemies in an effort to climb the political ladder. It’s got some cool imagery, but it’s not like some kind of profound wisdom that needs to be safeguarded.
- _qulr 6y ago
  Not sure if we still need a "spoiler alert" for 1969, but if you've read Dune without also reading Dune Messiah, you've unfortunately missed the whole point. The first book is merely a setup. If I may be allowed to mix my sci-fi metaphors, "It's a trap!" The first novel was never intended by Herbert to be "self-contained", but the second novel never achieved the same popularity as the first — perhaps for obvious reasons, if you've read it. It's not the sequel one expects.
  - jfengel 6y ago
    I've heard that it's disappointing, which is too bad. The first novel is one of the true greats of the field, the kind where you can feel the existence of a deeper history and crave to know more. Only Tolkien did it better, and he only by being obsessive about it. Unfortunately, it's really hard to actually fulfill the reader's craving without disappointing them. Friends have pushed me to read the rest of the Dune books, but I'm reluctant. Not because the story is unexpected -- that sounds promising, actually -- but because if it's not well-written, it would feel like it taints them gem I already know.
    - _qulr 6y ago
      It's well-written. All 6 books are well-written. IMO the later novels are every bit as good as the earlier novels. (We shall not discuss the son's unfortunate knockoffs.) I suspect some readers were disappointed with books 2 and 3 because the story didn't go the way they wanted. But that's because the sly devil Frank was teaching us a lesson. :-)

50 points by AndrewBissell 6y ago

boltefnovor 6y ago

It’s extremely wimpy and limp that they changed it to crusade from jihad. Holy heck what difference would it have made?

libraryatnight 6y ago
Verbal tiptoeing has become an absolute bore. An exhausting bore.
jfengel 6y ago
It's more accurate to the book. The word appears only in the trailer. In the book, it's "jihad", which fits in the many other Arabic-derived words, like Muad'dib (مؤدب, "teacher") and gom jabbar (جبار, "powerful").

phobosanomaly 6y ago

This is a very 2003 argument. The United States has pivoted away from being scared of the Middle East, and the religious culture wars of that era are over. Nobody's buying God Delusion at Border's Books anymore. "Today, only 43% of Americans identify as white and Christian, and only 30% as white and Protestant." "Nearly one in four (24%) Americans are now religiously unaffiliated." And it's going in a pretty clear direction. "Conversely, only about one-quarter of young adults (age 18-29) belong to a white Christian tradition, including white evangelical Protestant (8%), white mainline Protestant (8%), or white Catholic (6%)." https://www.prri.org/research/american-religious-landscape-christian-religiously-unaffiliated/ https://www.prri.org/research/american-religious-landscape-c... From the article: "Unlike many of his, or our, contemporaries, Herbert was willing to imagine a world that was not based on Western, Christian mythology." I would say, rather, now more than any other recent time in American history, people are 'willing to imagine a world that was not based on Western, Christian mythology.' The author works on Sufism at UPenn (which is undoubtedly fascinating - would love to sign up for one of his classes), but I think he might benefit from looking at the world through a lens that isn't colored exclusively by religion.

touristtam 6y ago
> The United States has pivoted away from being scared of the Middle East If you look at conservative Hollywood, it hasn't. Arabs and/or Muslim are still the obvious baddies in the cultural representation of the USA centric view of the world through the film industry in North America.
- phobosanomaly 6y ago
  I dunno, the latest Bond films, Tenet, John Wick, Inception, the Marvel Series, the Kingsmen series, etc. I think we're moving away from it. Maybe I just haven't seen enough new movies though, that could definitely be a possibility.

globular-toast 6y ago

I wonder if they will mention the Butlerian jihad, or will that be labelled a "revolution"?

im3w1l 6y ago
Kids these days can't relate to butlers. Uber driver revolution?
- avar 6y ago
  The "Butler" in Butlerian Jihad is a reference to a person whose surname is "Butler". It wasn't started by a bunch of butlers: https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Jehanne_Butler https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Jehanne_Butler
  - im3w1l 6y ago
    I knew that
  - MaanuAir 6y ago
    I just learnt this reference comes from the Dune Encyclopedia. Until now, I only knew the character of "Serena Butler" instead, coming from the more recent Brian Herbert's & Kevin J. Anderson's prequel novels. This one actually: https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Serena_Butler https://dune.fandom.com/wiki/Serena_Butler Another trait of such a rich universe, indeed!

biolurker1 6y ago

Main reason he didn't want it

SigmundA 6y ago

Will be interesting to see if they ever say the word jihad in the movie, but using the word crusade still fits, after all this is directly from the books appendices: >JIHAD: a religious crusade; fanatical crusade. >JIHAD, BUTLERIAN: (see also Great Revolt)—the crusade against computers, thinking machines, and conscious robots begun in 201 B.G. and concluded in 108 B.G.

_qulr 6y ago

This is so silly. In the book, spice was a metaphor for oil. Herbert said so himself. Dune was set in the far future, but it was very much about the (1960s) present too. The Middle Eastern themes were there for a reason. Just wait until they read the passage in Dune Messiah where Paul compares himself to Hitler and Genghis Khan, while Stilgar and Korba refuse to believe it.

dr-detroit 6y ago

You've committed the classic blunder of applying 2020 Nuspeak to a book from the 20th century. The distinction between Jihad(a badwrong) and Crusade(a good source of warm dopamine feelings) didn't exist as it does in our lexicon today.

cafard 6y ago

Atreus somehow is not one of those names that puts me in mind of Christianity or Islam, either one.

jeegsy 6y ago

Who cares? Is there a word for this sort of writing in which current sensibilities are applied to older works in an attempt to "educate" people about a book that everyone read? > "Unlike many of his, or our, contemporaries, Herbert was willing to imagine a world that was not based on Western, Christian mythology." Again, who cares?

webmaven 6y ago
> Who cares? Is there a word for this sort of writing in which current sensibilities are applied to older works in an attempt to "educate" people about a book that everyone read? The post is basically saying "book that was massively popular at the time and is still popular actually holds up quite well when examined with current sensibilities in mind". It's also saying "don't jettison one of the things that make it great even when examined with contemporary sensibilities". It's the opposite of a takedown, and given that this sort of judgement is the exception rather than the rule[0], it's nice to have confirmation that I can continue to recommend Dune to new readers. So, I care. [0] I still love the LotR for example, but it is rather racist, quite overtly in places.

woah 6y ago

Dune is a story about a chosen son of nobility, coming from a very Europe-like planet to rule over a very Middle East-like planet where everything has Arabic-sounding names. He is somehow instantly accepted as a messiah by the local band of noble savages and, along with his family’s mercenaries, leads them in a “holy war” against his personal enemies in an effort to climb the political ladder. It’s got some cool imagery, but it’s not like some kind of profound wisdom that needs to be safeguarded.

_qulr 6y ago
Not sure if we still need a "spoiler alert" for 1969, but if you've read Dune without also reading Dune Messiah, you've unfortunately missed the whole point. The first book is merely a setup. If I may be allowed to mix my sci-fi metaphors, "It's a trap!" The first novel was never intended by Herbert to be "self-contained", but the second novel never achieved the same popularity as the first — perhaps for obvious reasons, if you've read it. It's not the sequel one expects.
- jfengel 6y ago
  I've heard that it's disappointing, which is too bad. The first novel is one of the true greats of the field, the kind where you can feel the existence of a deeper history and crave to know more. Only Tolkien did it better, and he only by being obsessive about it. Unfortunately, it's really hard to actually fulfill the reader's craving without disappointing them. Friends have pushed me to read the rest of the Dune books, but I'm reluctant. Not because the story is unexpected -- that sounds promising, actually -- but because if it's not well-written, it would feel like it taints them gem I already know.
  - _qulr 6y ago
    It's well-written. All 6 books are well-written. IMO the later novels are every bit as good as the earlier novels. (We shall not discuss the son's unfortunate knockoffs.) I suspect some readers were disappointed with books 2 and 3 because the story didn't go the way they wanted. But that's because the sly devil Frank was teaching us a lesson. :-)