10 ms·

Nvidia Driver not yet supported for Linux Kernel 5.9

59 points by simonpure 6y ago

jshap70 6y ago
the reason for the change to GPL in 5.9: https://lwn.net/Articles/827596/ https://lwn.net/Articles/827596/ it's a little frustrating that things which used to be kosher, like nvidia and nvidia_uvm linking are all of a sudden not because they got caught up in this crossfire.
- robbyt 6y ago
  "crossfire" huh? It's not a war. It's an open source project with a clear API, and a company that doesn't keep up with the API.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - izacus 6y ago
    I wonder if you'd say the same if the team changing the API would be Googles and the teams constantly having to scramble to unbreak their code would be an opensource project.
    - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
      Half the benefit of having open source drivers is so that the kernel team can update the drivers themselves when they change the API. I don't think there would be a lot of complaints from open source developers if Google were to change one of their APIs while submitting high quality patches to update all the open source projects that use it.
- qalmakka 6y ago
  Caught in the crossfire? NVIDIA has been skirting around the GPL for years with its Linux module, without ever contributing back. They've being hindering the adoption of Wayland for years due their refusal to implement GBM in their driver. I guess they kinda deserve the flak, especially since AMD and Intel have shown the world time and time again that you can have a fully open GPU driver merged with Linux without any negative downsides.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - izacus 6y ago
    So basically kernel team repeatedly breaking the driver is how they want to bludgeon nVidia into giving them all their code and forcing them into supporting their own APIs? Seems like petty behaviour to break users hardware just because you disagree with driver licensing.
    - dthul 6y ago
      They closed a loophole that allowed proprietary modules to access GPL only functionality.
    - baq 6y ago
      Yes, so they stop getting away with license shenanigans? The kernel is GPL, this surely isn’t hard to understand for Nvidia lawyers.
- FullyFunctional 6y ago
  And it was never kosher and NVIDIA knew exactly that what they were doing was really controversial and risky (I was there). Management at NVIDIA needs to have a forcing function to open the the drivers before anything changes. They depend on and profit from Linux (ML!) so they have no choice but to comply.
  - pantalaimon 6y ago
    Nvidia will keep working though WSL2
    - FullyFunctional 6y ago
      Datacenters do not run WSL2
- shmerl 6y ago
  There should be more pressure on Nvidia to provide a proper upstream driver. Their blob is an abomination.
- kmeisthax 6y ago
  IMO proprietary modules have never been kosher. They rely on a particular legal interpretation of the GPL that assumes that... 1. "Programs" (as defined by the GPL) can be legally separate works and share the same address space (on a platform where this arrangement is highly unusual) 2. Separate GPL Programs hosted in the same address space can share linked symbols determined to not be "internal APIs" (in a world where the Supreme Court might run roughshod over this and just say all API implementation is copyright-infringing) 3. "Operating system kernel" and "GPU driver for that self-same kernel" can be considered, regardless of address space colocation, to be separate GPL Programs. This interpretation is highly unusual but holds primarily because Linus Torvalds and every other major kernel contributor endorsed it. Whether or not this constitutes promissory estoppel, implied license, or something else is up to Nvidia legal to decide; but it's highly likely that nobody with standing to challenge what would otherwise be an obvious GPL license violation is actually in a position to do so. Hence, Nvidia has access to a market they shouldn't.
ydnaclementine 6y ago
Good to know to not update my arch system for a bit
- NullPrefix 6y ago
  Bad to know that you've picked nvidia GPU
  - bayindirh 6y ago
    I'm also in the same boat. Seven years ago, the only game in town was nVidia, sadly. Instead of improving and opening up, they locked down and obfuscated everything and went downhill from there. My next GPU won't be an nVidia. I'll be back to red team and be happy (I'm an AMD/ATI soft-fanboy. Love their design choices and hardware more).
  - stingraycharles 6y ago
    I know Nvidia is not very good for OSS, but when you’re doing a lot of ML work it’s just simply so much better to be able to use Nvidia’s toolkit, it’s just so much more mature and better supported.
- speedgoose 6y ago
  Thanks for letting us know that you use ArchLinux. – This comment was written using a bépo keyboard layout.
hirako2000 6y ago
https://youtu.be/iYWzMvlj2RQ https://youtu.be/iYWzMvlj2RQ
modeless 6y ago
Ugh. I hope the upcoming discrete GPUs from Intel [1] and ImgTec [2] are competitive, because Nvidia desperately needs more competition. The Nvidia Linux driver situation is the single worst part of using Linux for me. I've lost count of the number of times Nvidia has rendered my machine unbootable for one reason or another. [1] https://www.engadget.com/intel-xe-gpu-gamers-130000411.html https://www.engadget.com/intel-xe-gpu-gamers-130000411.html [2] Yes, ImgTec/PowerVR is getting back into the discrete GPU game! https://www.imgtec.com/blog/back-in-the-high-performance-game/ https://www.imgtec.com/blog/back-in-the-high-performance-gam...
- bayindirh 6y ago
  There's always AMD/ATI with its completely open drivers and hardware. AMD even redesigned the silicon to isolate HDCP from rest of the core to be able to open video encoders and other HDCP facing hardware to open drivers. Also, AMD's open driver's written by a different team in AMD. So they're not exactly 3rd party drivers.
  - 3np 6y ago
    For how long, though? https://www.arm.com/company/news/2020/09/nvidia-to-acquire-arm https://www.arm.com/company/news/2020/09/nvidia-to-acquire-a...
  - zamalek 6y ago
    And hopefully AMD has good news on the 28th.
  - modeless 6y ago
    Unfortunately AMD totally missed the boat on ML. They need to dramatically increase their investment both in hardware and software. My impression in the past has also been that they lag in performance on the high end, and their OpenGL driver quality is not as good in terms of features and conformance either. Though I am not totally up to date on their latest stuff.
    - BearOso 6y ago
29athrowaway 6y ago
NVIDIA needs to find a way to fix their driver situation. If they want to be #1 in AI, they must realize AI at scale takes place primarily on Linux.
- bayindirh 6y ago
  It won't bother them for a very long time. Enterprise systems and installations rarely follow latest kernels and packages. CentOS 8 still uses 5.8 for example and will use it for a long time. I manage such systems and unless something explicitly needs 5.9, we won't upgrade them. If it's working, it's working. Everything is isolated from outside network so, external threats are not very important. We're also an academic installation so, there's nothing sensitive inside. Edit: This doesn't mean that we won't security-patch our systems. That's done pretty quickly and regularly. It's different.
therouwboat 6y ago
I updated yesterday without knowing this and now I have 5.9.1 kernel and 455.28-7 nvidia driver, haven't seen any problems yet.
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  Are you sure noveau is not being used?
- meragrin_ 6y ago
  You are not the only one having no issues with 5.9 and nvidia. I read somewhere(Phoronix?) the issue is related to compute and not graphics. Anyone using the card strictly for graphics and not compute should be okay.
- jandrese 6y ago
  I note the announcement is in the subforum: > Home > Accelerated Computing > CUDA > CUDA Setup and Installation So I'm guessing it's CUDA related.
shmerl 6y ago
Nvidia refuses to work with upstream properly, so that's not surprising. Once they'll stop fooling around and will get behind Nouveau, things might improve. Though I'm fine using AMD for my gaming needs on Linux.
- izacus 6y ago
  So basically the plan is to fuck over nVidia until they just give you all their code? Imagine if that behaviour would be done by Google, Microsoft or others - constantly breaking Mozillas or anyone elses code until they'd change their software license.
  - shmerl 6y ago
    I'd say the plan is to mostly ignore them on Linux until they become completely irrelevant or will become a good citizen and upstream their driver. I'm OK with Nvidia fading on Linux into irrelevance with their blob - good riddance. If they don't care about doing things on Linux properly, Linux users and developers don't need to care about Nvidia. That's been the case for Linux users for quite a while already. Only those who are stuck with CUDA lock-in need to deal with this mess these days. Nouveau developers expressed all this best: > Moral of the story... just get an Intel or AMD board and move on with life. NVIDIA has no interest in supporting open-source, and so if you want to support open-source, pick a company that aligns with this. https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-nvidia-linux-nouveau/998310-nouveau-persevered-in-2017-for-open-source-nvidia-but-2018-could-be-much-better#post998316 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-d...
    - franga2000 6y ago
      > I'm OK with Nvidia fading on Linux into irrelevance with their blob - good riddance. The vast majority of Linux use is on servers. When servers need GPUs it's usually for machine learning or other computation. Nvidia currently holds almost all of that market. All dropping Nvidia support would accomplish is forcing everyone in that market to switch to Windows. Cloud revenue would drop significantly for Linux companies like RedHat, which would in turn mean they have less spare money to work on desktop distros. So as much as I despise Nvidia, until AMD/RTG get their shit together AND (yes, we need both) Intel's dGPUs come out (and don't suck), we desperately need Nvidia support.
stingraycharles 6y ago
I saw my Debian machine updating to 5.9 today, should I wait with rebooting or am I safe?
freedomben 6y ago
I'm on Fedora and have been for 10 years. My Nvidia card was installed in 2012. It's always worked fine with the proprietary Nvidia driver up until I got kernel 5.9. My system has been hell since then. I had to switch back to Nouveau, and now I get crashes in Xwayland and Nouveau several times a day. This is bad enough I'm about to order an AMD card on Amazon and ban Nvidia from my life.
mrlonglong 6y ago
Linus Torvalds said it best with an upraised finger a few years back.
0xfaded 6y ago
I wish I read this before upgrading.

59 points by simonpure 6y ago

the reason for the change to GPL in 5.9: https://lwn.net/Articles/827596/ https://lwn.net/Articles/827596/ it's a little frustrating that things which used to be kosher, like nvidia and nvidia_uvm linking are all of a sudden not because they got caught up in this crossfire.

robbyt 6y ago
"crossfire" huh? It's not a war. It's an open source project with a clear API, and a company that doesn't keep up with the API.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- izacus 6y ago
  I wonder if you'd say the same if the team changing the API would be Googles and the teams constantly having to scramble to unbreak their code would be an opensource project.
  - AnthonyMouse 6y ago
    Half the benefit of having open source drivers is so that the kernel team can update the drivers themselves when they change the API. I don't think there would be a lot of complaints from open source developers if Google were to change one of their APIs while submitting high quality patches to update all the open source projects that use it.
qalmakka 6y ago
Caught in the crossfire? NVIDIA has been skirting around the GPL for years with its Linux module, without ever contributing back. They've being hindering the adoption of Wayland for years due their refusal to implement GBM in their driver. I guess they kinda deserve the flak, especially since AMD and Intel have shown the world time and time again that you can have a fully open GPU driver merged with Linux without any negative downsides.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- izacus 6y ago
  So basically kernel team repeatedly breaking the driver is how they want to bludgeon nVidia into giving them all their code and forcing them into supporting their own APIs? Seems like petty behaviour to break users hardware just because you disagree with driver licensing.
  - dthul 6y ago
    They closed a loophole that allowed proprietary modules to access GPL only functionality.
  - baq 6y ago
    Yes, so they stop getting away with license shenanigans? The kernel is GPL, this surely isn’t hard to understand for Nvidia lawyers.
FullyFunctional 6y ago
And it was never kosher and NVIDIA knew exactly that what they were doing was really controversial and risky (I was there). Management at NVIDIA needs to have a forcing function to open the the drivers before anything changes. They depend on and profit from Linux (ML!) so they have no choice but to comply.
- pantalaimon 6y ago
  Nvidia will keep working though WSL2
  - FullyFunctional 6y ago
    Datacenters do not run WSL2
shmerl 6y ago
There should be more pressure on Nvidia to provide a proper upstream driver. Their blob is an abomination.
kmeisthax 6y ago
IMO proprietary modules have never been kosher. They rely on a particular legal interpretation of the GPL that assumes that... 1. "Programs" (as defined by the GPL) can be legally separate works and share the same address space (on a platform where this arrangement is highly unusual) 2. Separate GPL Programs hosted in the same address space can share linked symbols determined to not be "internal APIs" (in a world where the Supreme Court might run roughshod over this and just say all API implementation is copyright-infringing) 3. "Operating system kernel" and "GPU driver for that self-same kernel" can be considered, regardless of address space colocation, to be separate GPL Programs. This interpretation is highly unusual but holds primarily because Linus Torvalds and every other major kernel contributor endorsed it. Whether or not this constitutes promissory estoppel, implied license, or something else is up to Nvidia legal to decide; but it's highly likely that nobody with standing to challenge what would otherwise be an obvious GPL license violation is actually in a position to do so. Hence, Nvidia has access to a market they shouldn't.

ydnaclementine 6y ago

Good to know to not update my arch system for a bit

NullPrefix 6y ago
Bad to know that you've picked nvidia GPU
- bayindirh 6y ago
  I'm also in the same boat. Seven years ago, the only game in town was nVidia, sadly. Instead of improving and opening up, they locked down and obfuscated everything and went downhill from there. My next GPU won't be an nVidia. I'll be back to red team and be happy (I'm an AMD/ATI soft-fanboy. Love their design choices and hardware more).
- stingraycharles 6y ago
  I know Nvidia is not very good for OSS, but when you’re doing a lot of ML work it’s just simply so much better to be able to use Nvidia’s toolkit, it’s just so much more mature and better supported.
speedgoose 6y ago
Thanks for letting us know that you use ArchLinux. – This comment was written using a bépo keyboard layout.

hirako2000 6y ago

https://youtu.be/iYWzMvlj2RQ https://youtu.be/iYWzMvlj2RQ

modeless 6y ago

Ugh. I hope the upcoming discrete GPUs from Intel [1] and ImgTec [2] are competitive, because Nvidia desperately needs more competition. The Nvidia Linux driver situation is the single worst part of using Linux for me. I've lost count of the number of times Nvidia has rendered my machine unbootable for one reason or another. [1] https://www.engadget.com/intel-xe-gpu-gamers-130000411.html https://www.engadget.com/intel-xe-gpu-gamers-130000411.html [2] Yes, ImgTec/PowerVR is getting back into the discrete GPU game! https://www.imgtec.com/blog/back-in-the-high-performance-game/ https://www.imgtec.com/blog/back-in-the-high-performance-gam...

bayindirh 6y ago
There's always AMD/ATI with its completely open drivers and hardware. AMD even redesigned the silicon to isolate HDCP from rest of the core to be able to open video encoders and other HDCP facing hardware to open drivers. Also, AMD's open driver's written by a different team in AMD. So they're not exactly 3rd party drivers.
- 3np 6y ago
  For how long, though? https://www.arm.com/company/news/2020/09/nvidia-to-acquire-arm https://www.arm.com/company/news/2020/09/nvidia-to-acquire-a...
- zamalek 6y ago
  And hopefully AMD has good news on the 28th.
- modeless 6y ago
  Unfortunately AMD totally missed the boat on ML. They need to dramatically increase their investment both in hardware and software. My impression in the past has also been that they lag in performance on the high end, and their OpenGL driver quality is not as good in terms of features and conformance either. Though I am not totally up to date on their latest stuff.
  - BearOso 6y ago

29athrowaway 6y ago

NVIDIA needs to find a way to fix their driver situation. If they want to be #1 in AI, they must realize AI at scale takes place primarily on Linux.

bayindirh 6y ago
It won't bother them for a very long time. Enterprise systems and installations rarely follow latest kernels and packages. CentOS 8 still uses 5.8 for example and will use it for a long time. I manage such systems and unless something explicitly needs 5.9, we won't upgrade them. If it's working, it's working. Everything is isolated from outside network so, external threats are not very important. We're also an academic installation so, there's nothing sensitive inside. Edit: This doesn't mean that we won't security-patch our systems. That's done pretty quickly and regularly. It's different.

therouwboat 6y ago

I updated yesterday without knowing this and now I have 5.9.1 kernel and 455.28-7 nvidia driver, haven't seen any problems yet.

pantalaimon 6y ago
Are you sure noveau is not being used?
meragrin_ 6y ago
You are not the only one having no issues with 5.9 and nvidia. I read somewhere(Phoronix?) the issue is related to compute and not graphics. Anyone using the card strictly for graphics and not compute should be okay.
jandrese 6y ago
I note the announcement is in the subforum: > Home > Accelerated Computing > CUDA > CUDA Setup and Installation So I'm guessing it's CUDA related.

shmerl 6y ago

Nvidia refuses to work with upstream properly, so that's not surprising. Once they'll stop fooling around and will get behind Nouveau, things might improve. Though I'm fine using AMD for my gaming needs on Linux.

izacus 6y ago
So basically the plan is to fuck over nVidia until they just give you all their code? Imagine if that behaviour would be done by Google, Microsoft or others - constantly breaking Mozillas or anyone elses code until they'd change their software license.
- shmerl 6y ago
  I'd say the plan is to mostly ignore them on Linux until they become completely irrelevant or will become a good citizen and upstream their driver. I'm OK with Nvidia fading on Linux into irrelevance with their blob - good riddance. If they don't care about doing things on Linux properly, Linux users and developers don't need to care about Nvidia. That's been the case for Linux users for quite a while already. Only those who are stuck with CUDA lock-in need to deal with this mess these days. Nouveau developers expressed all this best: > Moral of the story... just get an Intel or AMD board and move on with life. NVIDIA has no interest in supporting open-source, and so if you want to support open-source, pick a company that aligns with this. https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-drivers/open-source-nvidia-linux-nouveau/998310-nouveau-persevered-in-2017-for-open-source-nvidia-but-2018-could-be-much-better#post998316 https://www.phoronix.com/forums/forum/linux-graphics-x-org-d...
  - franga2000 6y ago
    > I'm OK with Nvidia fading on Linux into irrelevance with their blob - good riddance. The vast majority of Linux use is on servers. When servers need GPUs it's usually for machine learning or other computation. Nvidia currently holds almost all of that market. All dropping Nvidia support would accomplish is forcing everyone in that market to switch to Windows. Cloud revenue would drop significantly for Linux companies like RedHat, which would in turn mean they have less spare money to work on desktop distros. So as much as I despise Nvidia, until AMD/RTG get their shit together AND (yes, we need both) Intel's dGPUs come out (and don't suck), we desperately need Nvidia support.

stingraycharles 6y ago

I saw my Debian machine updating to 5.9 today, should I wait with rebooting or am I safe?

freedomben 6y ago

I'm on Fedora and have been for 10 years. My Nvidia card was installed in 2012. It's always worked fine with the proprietary Nvidia driver up until I got kernel 5.9. My system has been hell since then. I had to switch back to Nouveau, and now I get crashes in Xwayland and Nouveau several times a day. This is bad enough I'm about to order an AMD card on Amazon and ban Nvidia from my life.

mrlonglong 6y ago

Linus Torvalds said it best with an upraised finger a few years back.

0xfaded 6y ago

I wish I read this before upgrading.