8 ms·

those seem to be a minority thou

by samoa42 6y ago

scotth 6y ago
Seems like USA and UK fucking it up. Who else?
- mschuster91 6y ago
  Brazil and Turkey come to my mind.
  - pelasaco 6y ago
    why Brazil? The Democracy there works fine. There was a change in the power, which brought new dynamics to the Country, but IMO their democracy are eroding much less than in US, France and Germany Disclaimer: I'm German/Brazilian who lived 10 years in US.
    - romanoderoma 6y ago
      That must be a joke. Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro"
      - pelasaco 6y ago
        > Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally > wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro Please, add reference for that. The democracy is working as usual in Brazil, nothing changed. No rights was taken away from the people and no riots or civil conflicts are worse than before. Look America, France and Germany where the social fabric is partially destroyed.
        notreallytrue 6y ago
        So you don't know about his endorsement for #SomosTodosBolsonaro and the "fuck you day" and that "in an April rally also attended by Bolsonaro, demonstrators called on Sunday for the closing of the Supreme Court and Congress, and a return to authoritarian measures used during Brazil’s 1964-1985 military government"? You don't know that he "ordered the country’s armed forces to commemorate the anniversary of the 1964 coup which brought the military to power."? You don't know about his interference with justice and when Moro presented testimony about it Bolsonaro tweeted that he was "a traitor, a Juda"? You don't know that "As Bolsonaro’s relationship with legislators and the courts has cooled, he has become increasingly dependent on a cadre of advisers in his government who are active or former military"? You don't know that in a Facebook live he said “We have the armed forces at the people’s side: the side of order, democracy, liberty,”? You really don't know any of this? Tell me. if you can, when in France or Germany the President attended a far right rally where they hoped to return to the nazi period...
        pelasaco 6y ago
        As german I can tell you, you cannot compare the center-right in Brazil with Nazi Period, there is no way to continue a discussion with someone with this arguments, sorry. Edit: specially with a socket puppet: user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago
        notreallytrue 6y ago
        > you cannot compare right in Brazil with Nazi Period Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not? Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"? The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt. > user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago I know for a fact what happens to you when you go against far right movements, especially south american ones. Better safe than sorry.
        koolba 6y ago
        SayItStraight 6y ago
        Tiraflechas, are you serious?
      - eznzt 6y ago
        I thought protests were democratic and A Good Thing™?
        notreallytrue 6y ago
        Not when is Fascists Against Democracy™
        pelasaco 6y ago
        Everyone which I don't agree are Fascists (TM)?
        jlokier 6y ago
        Assuming yes, are protests against democracy democratic? See also Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
        eznzt 6y ago
        Yes, they are. If people don't want democracy then they should not have it.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        That's not democracy, that's dictatorship of the majority https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dictatorship_of_the_majority https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dictatorship_of_the_majorit... https://edsitement.neh.gov/curricula/alexis-de-tocqueville-tyranny-majority https://edsitement.neh.gov/curricula/alexis-de-tocqueville-t...
        eznzt 6y ago
        That's what democracy is. The current "tyranny of the minority" that we live in is an anomaly (and quite undemocratic)
        romanoderoma 6y ago
mschuster91 6y ago
Most wealthy countries are weathering corona quite decently, with woman-led countries being in the lead (e.g. NZ, Germany). The most notable exceptions are the US, Brazil, UK and Turkey - these four countries have one thing in common: far-right populist "strongmen" in power who are unable to find a line between the demands of medical/epidemiological expertise and their self interests.
- scottlocklin 6y ago
  The reality is, most people are going to get the 'rona. Germany for example; they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now. NZ, same thing's going to happen, unless they develop North Korea style immigration policies or 12 monkeys style lifestyle. They're better off in general because they have healthier populations than, say, the US or the UK, but putting it off isn't going to work forever. I don't think the US, Brazil, UK or Turkey explicitly realized this or anything (Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it). But ultimately getting it over with is probably going to look better in the long term.
  - Hokusai 6y ago
    > they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now That are lives saved. The more knowledge we have about the disease the easier is to treat it. Also, that measure has extended the lives of all the people that would have died months ago. Gaining time has a lot of value. > Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it No. A second wave is starting in Sweden. And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine". Sweden has had mixed results because has applied non-strong measures. Most companies are working remotely and there are strong safety nets for people to stay home if they feel sick. Even with that, it has been far from perfect, and it is far from over.
    - Kiro 6y ago
      > And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine". How is that relevant? Say "5500 people died" if you want to make a real point.

those seem to be a minority thou

scotth 6y ago

Seems like USA and UK fucking it up. Who else?

mschuster91 6y ago
Brazil and Turkey come to my mind.
- pelasaco 6y ago
  why Brazil? The Democracy there works fine. There was a change in the power, which brought new dynamics to the Country, but IMO their democracy are eroding much less than in US, France and Germany Disclaimer: I'm German/Brazilian who lived 10 years in US.
  - romanoderoma 6y ago
    That must be a joke. Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro"
    - pelasaco 6y ago
      > Bolsonaro endorsed the protests of a far right movement that literally > wants to "return to military rule under Bolsonaro Please, add reference for that. The democracy is working as usual in Brazil, nothing changed. No rights was taken away from the people and no riots or civil conflicts are worse than before. Look America, France and Germany where the social fabric is partially destroyed.
      - notreallytrue 6y ago
        So you don't know about his endorsement for #SomosTodosBolsonaro and the "fuck you day" and that "in an April rally also attended by Bolsonaro, demonstrators called on Sunday for the closing of the Supreme Court and Congress, and a return to authoritarian measures used during Brazil’s 1964-1985 military government"? You don't know that he "ordered the country’s armed forces to commemorate the anniversary of the 1964 coup which brought the military to power."? You don't know about his interference with justice and when Moro presented testimony about it Bolsonaro tweeted that he was "a traitor, a Juda"? You don't know that "As Bolsonaro’s relationship with legislators and the courts has cooled, he has become increasingly dependent on a cadre of advisers in his government who are active or former military"? You don't know that in a Facebook live he said “We have the armed forces at the people’s side: the side of order, democracy, liberty,”? You really don't know any of this? Tell me. if you can, when in France or Germany the President attended a far right rally where they hoped to return to the nazi period...
        pelasaco 6y ago
        As german I can tell you, you cannot compare the center-right in Brazil with Nazi Period, there is no way to continue a discussion with someone with this arguments, sorry. Edit: specially with a socket puppet: user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago
        notreallytrue 6y ago
        > you cannot compare right in Brazil with Nazi Period Is it true or not that Bolsonaro is against democracy and rallied against it or not? Can you find a moment when French or German president said something like "the military must be back in power"? The last time it happened in Europe was when nazi ruled, or when in Spain the fascist ruled, or when in Greece the fascists ruled etc. etc. I think the comparison is apt. > user: notreallytrue created: 8 minutes ago I know for a fact what happens to you when you go against far right movements, especially south american ones. Better safe than sorry.
        koolba 6y ago
      - SayItStraight 6y ago
        Tiraflechas, are you serious?
    - eznzt 6y ago
      I thought protests were democratic and A Good Thing™?
      - notreallytrue 6y ago
        Not when is Fascists Against Democracy™
      - pelasaco 6y ago
        Everyone which I don't agree are Fascists (TM)?
      - jlokier 6y ago
        Assuming yes, are protests against democracy democratic? See also Paradox of Tolerance. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paradox_of_tolerance
        eznzt 6y ago
        Yes, they are. If people don't want democracy then they should not have it.
        romanoderoma 6y ago
        That's not democracy, that's dictatorship of the majority https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dictatorship_of_the_majority https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/dictatorship_of_the_majorit... https://edsitement.neh.gov/curricula/alexis-de-tocqueville-tyranny-majority https://edsitement.neh.gov/curricula/alexis-de-tocqueville-t...
        eznzt 6y ago
        That's what democracy is. The current "tyranny of the minority" that we live in is an anomaly (and quite undemocratic)
        romanoderoma 6y ago

mschuster91 6y ago

Most wealthy countries are weathering corona quite decently, with woman-led countries being in the lead (e.g. NZ, Germany). The most notable exceptions are the US, Brazil, UK and Turkey - these four countries have one thing in common: far-right populist "strongmen" in power who are unable to find a line between the demands of medical/epidemiological expertise and their self interests.

scottlocklin 6y ago
The reality is, most people are going to get the 'rona. Germany for example; they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now. NZ, same thing's going to happen, unless they develop North Korea style immigration policies or 12 monkeys style lifestyle. They're better off in general because they have healthier populations than, say, the US or the UK, but putting it off isn't going to work forever. I don't think the US, Brazil, UK or Turkey explicitly realized this or anything (Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it). But ultimately getting it over with is probably going to look better in the long term.
- Hokusai 6y ago
  > they didn't get it as much last spring; they're getting it now That are lives saved. The more knowledge we have about the disease the easier is to treat it. Also, that measure has extended the lives of all the people that would have died months ago. Gaining time has a lot of value. > Sweden did; they're doing fine, and are basically over with it No. A second wave is starting in Sweden. And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine". Sweden has had mixed results because has applied non-strong measures. Most companies are working remotely and there are strong safety nets for people to stay home if they feel sick. Even with that, it has been far from perfect, and it is far from over.
  - Kiro 6y ago
    > And, the father of a colleague died of Covid19, that is not "doing fine". How is that relevant? Say "5500 people died" if you want to make a real point.