8 ms·

Bollocks. European management and screening people will judge negatively both CV gaps and "job hopping" (or whatever they'll judge as disloyalty). Will use both

Bollocks. European management and screening people will judge negatively both CV gaps and "job hopping" (or whatever they'll judge as disloyalty). Will use both to lowball you or reject you when comparing with other candidates. Have a cozy full time job at major tech/engineering company? Stay where you are. It's dark and windy out there and believe me you don't want to deal with recruitment processes.

bartread 6y ago
I'm not really sure that's what she's saying. There's a whole section at the end on "Change doesn't mean to quit". To address your specific points, and as someone who's done a lot of hiring for different companies over the years: - Yes, lots of job hopping can be viewed negatively (please see below). - I've been amazed by the number of people I know who've changed jobs mid-pandemic. Clearly there is still a job market out there. With that being said my default position agrees with yours: unless you have a very compelling reason to change jobs, if your current job is secure, stick with it. Back to job hopping... If you've been working for 10+ years and never held down a job for more than a year or two the alarm bells start ringing. If you've pulled that off for 15 - 20 years all of the alarm bells go into maximum overdrive. However, I certainly don't mind a bit of job hopping early in your career: it can take a while for people to find a position that really suits them. Similarly, peoples' circumstances change: they get married, they move, they have children, they're made redundant, they have health problems, they need to care for a relative, they suffer bereavement, or they just get bored and need a change and it takes a while to figure out - not to mention all of the other changes that can happen within a company that make them to look for work elsewhere. The result is that people might go through another period where they change jobs more often: they might start contracting, or if they move and have to change jobs the first job they land might not be that great. Often I've seen on CVs where people have been with a company for a long time, then might change two or three times after that because really good jobs that suit you well aren't actually as common as we'd all probably like. Again, that's generally OK. What I do want to see is some solid evidence that under the right circumstances you can hold a job down and stick at it for a few years. The amount of evidence I'll want to see of that increases proportionally to the length of your career. This is an inexact rule of thumb. Changing jobs a lot may not immediately put me off a candidate but it will, at the very least, mean I dig into the issue very thoroughly during the selection process, and if I don't like what I find then obviously you won't get the job (but that's true of any aspect of selection). With that said it is possible to stay in a job too long. I was with one company for 10 years, and that was too long. Far too long. But not because it was 10 years: the company had stopped growing at the time and I'd run out of opportunities to really develop and advance in my career. I'd say I wasted at least the last 3 years there. In terms of career advancement that 3 years has probably cost me more like 5 - 7, because I was burned out and pissed off, so I spent a couple of years contracting before moving back into full time employment.
- flavmartins 6y ago
  +1. Nothing wrong with some job changes in your CV. I think that for those who struggle with getting complacent, I would say that they should look at internal job transfers. Different team, different project, something that gives you the change of work/scenery in the company but the constant hopping between different places doesn't look good to someone interviewing you. As a manager, you're thinking, "I'm taking a risk on this person. Will they be around here for our multi-year project vision?" Someone who job hops likely won't be around long enough for you to execute on the big picture and you'll be back to hiring/training a replacement too soon.
  - bartread 6y ago
    > As a manager, you're thinking, "I'm taking a risk on this person. Will they be around here for our multi-year project vision?" Someone who job hops likely won't be around long enough for you to execute on the big picture and you'll be back to hiring/training a replacement too soon. Exactly. Bringing someone onboard, getting them up to speed, training them, etc., is an investment, and one that you want to be confident of seeing a return on. When it comes to leadership with lots of job changes I become even more wary: I start to wonder what kind of havoc somebody might have left in their wake and, with this stuff, often references only get you so far. I find myself trying to figure out if I know anyone who's worked with them in the past so I can get a viewpoint from somebody who no longer has a dog in the fight. There are sadly a minority of people out there who have a habit of changing jobs, with increasing seniority, just frequently enough that they avoid being "found out" whilst in role. I don't want to hire one of them.
- durnygbur 6y ago
  We are into a 2-3 years long unprecedented crisis. DO NOT PANIC. DO NOT DO IT. Stay where you are.
  - bartread 6y ago
    A lot of people I've seen change jobs did so because they had offers in hand before lockdown hit. And there are companies and organisations that are still hiring: you just need to be sure that you're stepping onto a firm footing in your new position. If you're moving into a position with the government or an NGO you're probably as safe as you are anywhere, but I probably wouldn't be taking a position as a web developer for (say) a fast fashion retailer right now, or anything at all in the entertainment and hospitality sectors outside the BBC, Netflix, etc. Still, unless it's really dreadful where you are, I'd stay put.
Aeolun 6y ago
> Will use both to lowball you or reject you when comparing with other candidates. But if they do, I wouldn’t want to work there anyway :/
- sabas123 6y ago
  I hear this a lot and each time it just reminds me of "Ow you didn't invite to the party? Thats ok I didn't want to go anyway :("
  - Double_a_92 6y ago
    How is it a bad thing if a company doesn't want to waste training on an employee that could leave next year? If anything the opposite is a red flag, since you would be working somewhere where you are just a replaceable "robot".
  - friendlybus 6y ago
    It sounds like a person who doesnt want a lowball offer, and people who present lowball offers. No different to selling secondhand cars, lowballers annoy everybody.
  - Aeolun 6y ago
    I feel like it’s more like the guy who invites you to his party but asks you to bring your own drinks and food. It’s fine up to a certain point, but when they’re living in a villa it starts to feel cheap.
wsc981 6y ago
Not sure if I agree with this. I grew up in The Netherlands and as a software developer I would change companies every 1.5-3 years. From my experience (in The Netherlands) many jobs will give you just a very small raise every year and the only way to make big financial gains is to job hop every now and then. Or go freelancing at which point you set your own rates.
- durnygbur 6y ago
  > From my experience (in The Netherlands) many jobs will give you just a very small raise every year and the only way to make big financial gains is to job hop every now and then. That's a paradox I've encountered. Companies don't reward loyalty of their current employees, yet they prefer CVs signalling loyalty to the employer. Contracting is underdog relation for the freelancer in many industries in Europe, some companies use it as vestibule to the full time employment contract.
  - goatinaboat 6y ago
    That's a paradox I've encountered. Companies don't reward loyalty of their current employees, yet they prefer CVs signalling loyalty to the employer. It's no paradox at all. In both cases they are simply optimising for paying the lowest salaries they can get away with.
woadwarrior01 6y ago
I'm based in Europe, although I run my own early stage company and we're not hiring, yet. I used to be a part of the job market until about a year ago, although my last two employers were both SV companies. So that's probably is where many of my biases come from. I have a couple of freelancers working with me and I never really paid much attention to their CVs. I value the technical and (written) communication abilities over anything I see in the CV. Especially because everyone is working remotely. I seem to have have the opposite bias. When I see that someone has spent > 5 years in a well established / post growth company. I see it as a sign of compacency, which has a slightly negative connotation in my books. I totally undestand it if you're getting fat raises and stock refreshers every year at a growth phase company. But if you've been working at a podunk company for 5+ years, that's definitely a negative signal for me. Also, the old cliche quote: "If you want loyalty, get a dog" comes to mind. Loyalty and ambition are anti correlated. I think the extremes of both are bad, and it helps to strike a balance somewhere in the middle.
kubanczyk 6y ago
My anecdata. I'm often hiring for my European employer. Nobody bats an eye if you have a streak of e.g. 5 months, 9 months, 6 months, 10 months. Realistically, these candidates do get an honest shot at a tech interview (which is hard to pass for any candidate). But if you forget to put Kubernetes in your resumé, that's when you are in trouble.
- izacus 6y ago
  What kind of positions are you hiring for though? E.g. a technical lead candidate will look very poor if he never actually stuck around any kind of project to actually see the results of his decisions.
axetheone 6y ago
I don't really feel that there's prejudice on job hopping in Europe nowadays (at least in the software industry). If you're at a place for at least 2 years you kind of start to be considered an old timer.

bartread 6y ago

I'm not really sure that's what she's saying. There's a whole section at the end on "Change doesn't mean to quit". To address your specific points, and as someone who's done a lot of hiring for different companies over the years: - Yes, lots of job hopping can be viewed negatively (please see below). - I've been amazed by the number of people I know who've changed jobs mid-pandemic. Clearly there is still a job market out there. With that being said my default position agrees with yours: unless you have a very compelling reason to change jobs, if your current job is secure, stick with it. Back to job hopping... If you've been working for 10+ years and never held down a job for more than a year or two the alarm bells start ringing. If you've pulled that off for 15 - 20 years all of the alarm bells go into maximum overdrive. However, I certainly don't mind a bit of job hopping early in your career: it can take a while for people to find a position that really suits them. Similarly, peoples' circumstances change: they get married, they move, they have children, they're made redundant, they have health problems, they need to care for a relative, they suffer bereavement, or they just get bored and need a change and it takes a while to figure out - not to mention all of the other changes that can happen within a company that make them to look for work elsewhere. The result is that people might go through another period where they change jobs more often: they might start contracting, or if they move and have to change jobs the first job they land might not be that great. Often I've seen on CVs where people have been with a company for a long time, then might change two or three times after that because really good jobs that suit you well aren't actually as common as we'd all probably like. Again, that's generally OK. What I do want to see is some solid evidence that under the right circumstances you can hold a job down and stick at it for a few years. The amount of evidence I'll want to see of that increases proportionally to the length of your career. This is an inexact rule of thumb. Changing jobs a lot may not immediately put me off a candidate but it will, at the very least, mean I dig into the issue very thoroughly during the selection process, and if I don't like what I find then obviously you won't get the job (but that's true of any aspect of selection). With that said it is possible to stay in a job too long. I was with one company for 10 years, and that was too long. Far too long. But not because it was 10 years: the company had stopped growing at the time and I'd run out of opportunities to really develop and advance in my career. I'd say I wasted at least the last 3 years there. In terms of career advancement that 3 years has probably cost me more like 5 - 7, because I was burned out and pissed off, so I spent a couple of years contracting before moving back into full time employment.

flavmartins 6y ago
+1. Nothing wrong with some job changes in your CV. I think that for those who struggle with getting complacent, I would say that they should look at internal job transfers. Different team, different project, something that gives you the change of work/scenery in the company but the constant hopping between different places doesn't look good to someone interviewing you. As a manager, you're thinking, "I'm taking a risk on this person. Will they be around here for our multi-year project vision?" Someone who job hops likely won't be around long enough for you to execute on the big picture and you'll be back to hiring/training a replacement too soon.
- bartread 6y ago
  > As a manager, you're thinking, "I'm taking a risk on this person. Will they be around here for our multi-year project vision?" Someone who job hops likely won't be around long enough for you to execute on the big picture and you'll be back to hiring/training a replacement too soon. Exactly. Bringing someone onboard, getting them up to speed, training them, etc., is an investment, and one that you want to be confident of seeing a return on. When it comes to leadership with lots of job changes I become even more wary: I start to wonder what kind of havoc somebody might have left in their wake and, with this stuff, often references only get you so far. I find myself trying to figure out if I know anyone who's worked with them in the past so I can get a viewpoint from somebody who no longer has a dog in the fight. There are sadly a minority of people out there who have a habit of changing jobs, with increasing seniority, just frequently enough that they avoid being "found out" whilst in role. I don't want to hire one of them.
durnygbur 6y ago
We are into a 2-3 years long unprecedented crisis. DO NOT PANIC. DO NOT DO IT. Stay where you are.
- bartread 6y ago
  A lot of people I've seen change jobs did so because they had offers in hand before lockdown hit. And there are companies and organisations that are still hiring: you just need to be sure that you're stepping onto a firm footing in your new position. If you're moving into a position with the government or an NGO you're probably as safe as you are anywhere, but I probably wouldn't be taking a position as a web developer for (say) a fast fashion retailer right now, or anything at all in the entertainment and hospitality sectors outside the BBC, Netflix, etc. Still, unless it's really dreadful where you are, I'd stay put.

Aeolun 6y ago

> Will use both to lowball you or reject you when comparing with other candidates. But if they do, I wouldn’t want to work there anyway :/

sabas123 6y ago
I hear this a lot and each time it just reminds me of "Ow you didn't invite to the party? Thats ok I didn't want to go anyway :("
- Double_a_92 6y ago
  How is it a bad thing if a company doesn't want to waste training on an employee that could leave next year? If anything the opposite is a red flag, since you would be working somewhere where you are just a replaceable "robot".
- friendlybus 6y ago
  It sounds like a person who doesnt want a lowball offer, and people who present lowball offers. No different to selling secondhand cars, lowballers annoy everybody.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  I feel like it’s more like the guy who invites you to his party but asks you to bring your own drinks and food. It’s fine up to a certain point, but when they’re living in a villa it starts to feel cheap.

wsc981 6y ago

Not sure if I agree with this. I grew up in The Netherlands and as a software developer I would change companies every 1.5-3 years. From my experience (in The Netherlands) many jobs will give you just a very small raise every year and the only way to make big financial gains is to job hop every now and then. Or go freelancing at which point you set your own rates.

durnygbur 6y ago
> From my experience (in The Netherlands) many jobs will give you just a very small raise every year and the only way to make big financial gains is to job hop every now and then. That's a paradox I've encountered. Companies don't reward loyalty of their current employees, yet they prefer CVs signalling loyalty to the employer. Contracting is underdog relation for the freelancer in many industries in Europe, some companies use it as vestibule to the full time employment contract.
- goatinaboat 6y ago
  That's a paradox I've encountered. Companies don't reward loyalty of their current employees, yet they prefer CVs signalling loyalty to the employer. It's no paradox at all. In both cases they are simply optimising for paying the lowest salaries they can get away with.

woadwarrior01 6y ago

I'm based in Europe, although I run my own early stage company and we're not hiring, yet. I used to be a part of the job market until about a year ago, although my last two employers were both SV companies. So that's probably is where many of my biases come from. I have a couple of freelancers working with me and I never really paid much attention to their CVs. I value the technical and (written) communication abilities over anything I see in the CV. Especially because everyone is working remotely. I seem to have have the opposite bias. When I see that someone has spent > 5 years in a well established / post growth company. I see it as a sign of compacency, which has a slightly negative connotation in my books. I totally undestand it if you're getting fat raises and stock refreshers every year at a growth phase company. But if you've been working at a podunk company for 5+ years, that's definitely a negative signal for me. Also, the old cliche quote: "If you want loyalty, get a dog" comes to mind. Loyalty and ambition are anti correlated. I think the extremes of both are bad, and it helps to strike a balance somewhere in the middle.

kubanczyk 6y ago

My anecdata. I'm often hiring for my European employer. Nobody bats an eye if you have a streak of e.g. 5 months, 9 months, 6 months, 10 months. Realistically, these candidates do get an honest shot at a tech interview (which is hard to pass for any candidate). But if you forget to put Kubernetes in your resumé, that's when you are in trouble.

izacus 6y ago
What kind of positions are you hiring for though? E.g. a technical lead candidate will look very poor if he never actually stuck around any kind of project to actually see the results of his decisions.

axetheone 6y ago

I don't really feel that there's prejudice on job hopping in Europe nowadays (at least in the software industry). If you're at a place for at least 2 years you kind of start to be considered an old timer.