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Engineers, not racers, are the true drivers of success in motor sport
- choeger 6y agoInteresting analysis, but the main point remains: You can not compare drivers across different eras. Is Lewis the GOAT? Yes. Is Michael the GOAT? Yes.
- jkuria 6y agoHmmh, I took away the exact opposite point. They developed a model to do exactly this and Fangio from the 1950s came out on top. He raced for four different teams and the driver's contribution (versus the car's and the team's) was 58% compared to 19% today.
- giobox 6y agoThere is no way for Lewis to assume that much responsibility even if he wanted to though, to continue this example. I'd go as far as to argue with constant rule changes it's not even the same sport anymore, especially the gap between Fangio and Lewis etc. I agree, cross-generation driver comparisons are really hard.
- mhh__ 6y agoThe whole idea of a GOAT is just stupid. Lewis is very good, if he didn't move to Mercedes he'd be another 1 time WDC. The best drivers make it to the top, but that's it. Alonso only won 2 and he was just as good as Lewis and Schumacher (arguably better considering what he could do in cars of almost any quality, lewis had a bad car once his entire career)
- vl 6y agoI feel stupid arguing this, but if you watched F1 during Schumacher era it was obvious that Schumacher is really the best driver. While still at Benetton, he demonstrated his abilities, then with the top car he showed enormous consistency. Other drivers haven’t achieved it in the similar cars.
- leghifla 6y agoWhen Schumacher moved to Ferrari, Ferrari was not at all the best car, far from it. But the relentless work he did there improved the car far faster than the other team could. HE made the car better. It was an era with no (or few?) limitations to testing and Schumacher was known for testing a lot more than other drivers.
- atmosx 6y agoI would argue that Senna is the GOAT and it’s not even close. But yeh these GOAT conversations better with beers and stakes and people yelling at each other in person!
- serf 6y agoWhenever any of the 'old folks' of F1 are interviewed (Lauda, Stewart, Williams), they talk about Fangio and Clark. It's not surprising to me that they're at the top. The in-car footage of Fangio is breathtaking.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- segmondy 6y agoThis entire argument is simply because Hamilton is black. He sets records and all of a sudden he can't shine by himself. Of course the team is important and very good but also so is Hamilton as is evident by his teammate who has the same car unless you truly believe Mercedes is giving his teammate a handicapped car.
- focom 6y agoReading the first line: > Our statistical model finds that neither Lewis Hamilton nor Michael Schumacher is Formula 1’s greatest driver So its lame to play the racist card here.
- segmondy 6y agoGive me a break, let me guess, you are not black. Since Lewis got on top I have seen this argument come up, this rubbish didn't come up in the past. This same behavior happens all the time when a black person performs very well, folks find ways to take it away.
- focom 6y agoI am Caribbean but unlike you, I don't fall for the victim hood narrative. Racism is not the reason for every issues in our community.
- segmondy 6y agoSure! ... and you think it's a coincidence that this article came out now? Not last year? Not 2 years ago? Hell, not 2 months ago. What do you think is the driving force behind the article?
- Swizec 6y agoIt’s like genetics in other sports. You need the best car to win, that’s a given. But if you can’t drive at the car’s max, you won’t win. Just like a poorly trained athlete with perfect genetics won’t win. But comparing great athletes, the one with best genetics wins.
- olivermarks 6y agoDepends on the motorsport. Take drag racing. top fuel driver after reaction time is mostly along for the ride, depends on quality of engineering to win/lose. Alcohol FC is immensely complicated to drive, also pro stock which is pure driving skill. MotoGP motor cycle racing is highly skilled and is IMO far, far more exciting than Formula One which used to be the fastest/most expensive formula amongst multiple divisions and is now largely an inventors/engineers domain. As others have noted different eras of racing cars (late 60's early 70's formula one for example) required very different skills and bravery levels. David Coulthard drives Jim Clark's Lotus 25 https://youtu.be/_L1tHavnd9w https://youtu.be/_L1tHavnd9w lovely bit of informative film
- jcims 6y agoMy favorite expression of motorsport is the Isle of Man TT. Mostly because it’s a freak show. Here’s a serene introduction for the uninitiated: https://youtu.be/zbaO8mzByvw https://youtu.be/zbaO8mzByvw Once you’re done with that, search YouTube for “Isle of Man TT onboard” and prepare thyself.
- taneq 6y agoOh man, I used to love watching IoMTT videos until I actually started riding a bike. Now they're legitimately terrifying.
- olivermarks 6y agoI use those TT headrush onboard videos as motivators, they are really intense. Milky hitting the wall https://youtu.be/-Nzq2GorVH4 https://youtu.be/-Nzq2GorVH4 The great Michael Dunlop first person https://youtu.be/YWZG1nhgwgg https://youtu.be/YWZG1nhgwgg Like watching speeded up video rushes
- jcims 6y agoI get tunnel vision just watching these damn videos. I don't know how they do it with so much at stake, especially when it's down to the wire and they are passing back and forth on roasted tires. It feels superhuman. Then you hear Guy Martin 'talk' and it all makes sense. :D
- tartoran 6y agoIf we go down this path we’ll watch autopilots racing soon. Not fun
- eindiran 6y agoI don't know, commentated matches between eg Stockfish and Alpha Zero can be fascinating. An analysis of SOTA self-driving technologies racing at a post-F1 level sounds pretty interesting.
- Rolpa 6y agoAs a child in the ancient days of the early 2000s, I would often setup botmatches consisting of 16 'players' in Quake 3 and spectate the resultant carnage. I wouldn't venture to say it was educational or intellectual in any sense, but it was still pretty fascinating - even as a ten year old - to observe what was essentially a bunch of fake people run around on my little P3. IIRC there were user made characters that had custom bot files with distinct 'personalities', so you could throw together different combinations of bots in different maps and come away with some very different encounters.
- Reedx 6y agoThough if there are no drivers, they don't have to worry about safety. Removing that constraint would be interesting. Might want to branch it though, as it'd become something different.
- tartoran 6y agoYes, I agree about the safety, but without the human element it’s just so.. Not sure if people would still be interested, it wouldnt classify as a sport
- yabirgb 6y agoThis is already happening https://roborace.com/ https://roborace.com/
- raverbashing 6y ago
- draklor40 6y agoMostly because modern F1 is more less about driving and more about optimzing fuel consumption, tyre wear, pitstop strategy and KERS. The driver is merely a pilot doing what is instructed over the radio, unlike the V12 , V10 era where the driver had more autonomy.
- itsoktocry 6y ago>The driver is merely a pilot doing what is instructed over the radio I think this severely understates the skill of some of the highest paid athletes on the planet.
- draklor40 6y agoNot taking away anything from the drivers. All of them are exceptional and possibly the best on the planet. That said, when you are racing over ~20ish races , as a team, it pretty much boils down to long term strategy and tactics. Kevin Schwantz and Wayne Rainey were 2 epic motorcyclists in the 90s. Schwantz had more individual wins, but it was Rainey that had more championships titles, because he was more consistent in his races and made fewer mistakes (Even Schwantz admits this in an interview)
- csours 6y agoThis is kind of fascinating to think about from an evolutionary perspective: Does it pay off more to have truly exceptional individuals that can outperform everyone else at times, but may be lost due to risk taking - or - is it better to have people that can perform consistently at a very high level?
- Swizec 6y agoConsistency is the true mark of a good racer. I can’t remember who the quote is from but it goes like this: ”Yeah I was a great driver! On a good day I could beat anyone, Senna, Schumi, Prost I was up with the best and beating them. But that’s the thing, on a \good\* day. The real champions, they don’t have good and bad days. They’re always great. At every race, every corner.
- justiceforsaas 6y agoMy guess is that as technology progresses, engineers are going to become the "main drivers of success" for many other industries as well: the airline industry, the automobile industry (self-driving cars) and so on.
- aerospace_guy 6y agoDo you think engineers haven't been involved in building aircraft and automobiles until now? They've been the "main drivers of success" since the beginning of those industries. If you mean software engineers, I think your point is only partially valid. There is room for improvement in other areas as well, such as controls, aerodynamics, energy, materials to name a few.
- justiceforsaas 6y agoI meant, they're going to become MORE the drivers of success. Not saying they haven't been drivers at all, I meant their role is going to become more and more important.
- bgorman 6y agoWhat is your opinion of the 737 Max scandal? It doesn't seem like engineer's input is valued very much at the industry leading company (by market cap).
- oxfeed65261 6y agoFor the time being, at least, the Airbus A320 autopilot doesn’t support landing on a river.
- systemvoltage 6y agoI mean this in the most respectful way: Can someone please explain the allure of watching F1 race on TV? I honestly sat down with a few friends and we watched Kimi Raikonnen but it was not a lot of action in terms of overtaking and drama - it was mostly inching forward and making time. I fully understand and appreciate the amount of skills that go into driving an F1 car, but what is in for the spectator?
- moron4hire 6y agoI think Twain explains it best: http://mrbazilewich.weebly.com/uploads/6/2/0/4/6204690/twain_river.pdf http://mrbazilewich.weebly.com/uploads/6/2/0/4/6204690/twain... You see things differently when you know how they work.
- girvo 6y agoI watch the first few laps intently: there’s lots of overtaking, tactics and contact. I then tune out and leave it on in the background until the last few laps. Sort of like how I watch Cricket actually
- abraae 6y agoWatching cricket is an art in itself. I once spent 5 days watching a test match at the basin reserve in Wellington, fueled with plenty of beer. From day 4 it was obvious the match was heading for a draw and so it did.
- systemvoltage 6y agoTIL Cricket lasts 5 days wtf.
- serf 6y ago>I mean this in the most respectful way: Can someone please explain the allure of watching F1 race on TV? I watch it because I drive/drove race cars. I love auto-racing. I love the noise, the personalities, and most importantly the cars. I can't answer your question, really. If there isn't any draw to watch it, you probably just don't enjoy it. No shame in that. I don't really understand why people watch football/basketball/soccer; but I understand why I don't get it -- I have no interest in the sports. My father watches the Tour de France every year. He was an extremely in-depth established cyclist for years and years. When I watch the Tour with him, I fall asleep. He falls asleep if I put him through auto-racing. I think it's the same kind of thing. If it's any consolation : your problem is a widespread one. The FIA is trying to make it more spectator-interesting next year by establishing a big wall of rule changes.
- gehsty 6y agoI guess what we are looking at is how good is someone relative to their peers, was Fangio a better driver compared to his peers than Lewis is now, likely, was he a better driver, we’ll never know as the two never competed.
- dboreham 6y agoApart from watching on TV and the movies, my only brush with this world was a 1/2 day spent interviewing at McLaren in 1990. It was very clear from every engineer I talked to that they had fairly low opinion of the drivers. One of the projects we discussed was a new telemetry system, its primary purpose to allow them to prove conclusively when the driver did something stupid. I didn't take the job if anyone was curious, for personal reasons. Too much travel required to F1 events..
- atmosx 6y agoMcLaren’s driver duo in 1990 were Ayrton Senna and Allen Prost. Are you sure the engineers weren’t just petty little creatures trying to get some spotlight? I can assure you that no engineer could win a race against either one. Additionally, Senna has proved that he do “well” with much inferior cars, there must be something going on there as well... As someone who races every now and then for fun, I can assure you that there is skill involved and domain knowledge. A lot of domain knowledge.
- reallydontask 6y ago> I can assure you that no engineer could win a race against either one You could turn that around and say that no F1 driver could design a car that would win in aero dominated F1 (mid 70s? onwards). The car dominates in modern F1, you need look no further than the current Mercs. Sure a good driver can outdrive the car but do you honestly think that Hamilton would've won in 2015's McLaren?
- WalterBright 6y agoI took one of those 3 day racing courses (lots of fun, highly recommended!). We drove Formula Fords, with classroom lectures interspersed with track practice. Early on, we were limited to 50 mph, and were sent out to practice racing lines around Watkins Glen. We thought we were hot stuff wheeling hard around the turns. Then the instructor told us to get in the van and he'd drive us around giving us pointers. He drove with his left hand on the wheel, and his body turned around facing backwards at us while he lectured us. He was sliding the van around the turns at 70 mph, and I doubt his heart rate exceeded 70 BPM. It was a very humbling experience.
- hexbinencoded 6y agoNot F1, but super/hypercar related: Christian von Koenigsegg is my soul brother. Engineer/CEO committed to excellence in extreme automotive manufacturing like: - Cam-less heads (which I was always wondered why they didn't exist when I was kid 25 years ago because it would trounce VVTI). - Complete carbon fibre wheels - Optimized hybrid EV testbed models - In-house, scratch-build EMS - Highly-efficient (power per weight) motors - Shooting for straight course speed world record - Incredible styling and aerodynamics
- happyjack 6y agoF1 is an extremely difficult position these days. How can a team(s) increase lap speed YoY, have competitive racing, make money, stay safe, and still have incentives for OEMs to participate? The answer is they can't. At least in the current formula. I think Bernie did a great job running the sport as a dictator, but he set up a house of cards that was doomed. I don't think Chase Carey and Liberty really had a chance. Also, the talent pool has become increasingly level. With the advances in simulator technology and aero dominating the sport, I think the driver / pilot has much less factor. I don't think there is really any room to argue. Kimi is still out in Q1, and the Mercs are 1 2. There will always be different eras and arguments as to who is good, blah blah. But the fact is driver salaries are going down, and the margin between the drivers is shrinking. This isn't 2003 where Schumacher and Ferrari would run 3000 miles of testing every other week. Let's be honest; it's about the car. There is a reason Adrian Newey has won titles with 3 teams. There is a reason MClaren is going back to Mercedes. There is a reason why Toro Rosso only wins in the wet. There is a reason driver salaries are down. There is a reason we have 18 year old drivers. I think the only way to go back to exciting racing is bringing back more variables. Less Tilke / new age tracks (more track diversity), refueling / more tire manufacturers and the like, go back to the old school points system, and get rid of these crazy stewards that are killing races like the one Vetell had in Canada. Have a technical regulations package that has a diminishing return past a certain amount of $ spent. Make it more about mechanical grip and less about aero. I remember listening to a beyond the grid podcast with Juan Pablo Montoya. The host kept trying to pull the whole "what was it like to race with Michael" ooze fest. Juan simply stated he was in the best car, and when he was at Mercedes he didn't do that well. All the drivers on the grid are good. All of them. The difference between the champions is some skill and a lot of luck, and managers making the right moves. Don't get me wrong; it takes skill. But (especially today) to say that drivers are not second place to the cars is somewhat ignorant. The only pair of teammates on the grid right now who have any legitimate gap are Albon and Verstappen. Other than that, it's par for the course.
- WalterBright 6y agoI've idly thought that if I was the F1 Czar I'd ban all transistors in the cars, except for in safety equipment. Not even a radio. Have the operation of the car be up to driver skill, not computer programmer virtuosity. (And I'm a programmer!) Of course, it is possible to make mechanical computers, but they are very costly to develop, heavy, take up lots of space, hard to modify, etc. Besides, it's a lost art.
- redis_mlc 6y agoFrom what I read back in the day, Michael Schumacher was 1 second faster than anybody else. Another team would have to spend $1 billion on a new engine to win against him with their drivers. Too bad he wasn't as good a skier: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Schumacher https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Schumacher
- 29athrowaway 6y agoSome drivers make the most of their cars. Like Ayrton Senna.
- raicem 6y agoI totally understand where this article is coming from but it still doesn't take away the appreciation of a good driver for me. I see lot of people coming to conclusions such as "drivers don't matter" after reading such articles. I don't agree with that. No one is gonna put Albon or Giovinazzi in the Mercedes and think "he'll be fine, we'll still win". Hamilton and Schumacher kinda put themselves up there to be in the position to dominate with the right team of engineers. They put themselves up there with their driving and team building skills.
- axegon_ 6y agoI'm on the opinion that both Albon and Giovinazzi have a lot of potential but they both face several problems. Albon is in the back seat at Red Bull and he is in the same position as Raikkonen when he was at Ferrari: as far as everyone at Ferrari was concerned, it was 90% Vettel, 10% Raikkonen. In that sense, Albon is pretty much alone. Giovinazzi on the other hand made a very big mistake initially - he had Raikkonen of all people to learn from. Even beyond the experience, Kimi is quite possibly the most knowledgeable driver out there, not only as far as setting up a car but also sportsmanship. And it seems Giovinazzi eventually figured that out. When he started off, he acted like a truck, not an F1 driver. These days he is a lot more composed and is getting really good results, considering he is in one of the slowest cars out there. I'm pretty sure he has Kimi to thank for that. Hamilton is a very different story - let's face it, he is the silver spoon boy. I really don't think there's a single person in F1 history who had it as easy as he did. While Michael was always riding with one foot over the edge of the rules. It's not to say that all of them aren't incredibly talented. But it does seem to me that for most of them circumstances played a much bigger role than their actual skills. Hence the reason why I wouldn't rule out either Albon or Giovinazzi as potential champions.
- mft_ 6y agoHamilton, the working class boy from Stevenage whose Dad had to work multiple jobs to support him being able to go racing in karts, is the “silver spoon boy”?
- 6y ago
- ExcavateGrandMa 6y agoAHAHAHAHAHAH, TRUTH iS BLOWING :) I REMEMBER MANY YEARS AGO, I SAID THAT JUST BECAUSE I HAD UNDERSTOOD IT again long ago... :) Welcome into our shitty world of "POSITION"... We have clownz, kingpinz, monsterz, ecetera... "Join us, we need you" :D DAMN IT!!!
- getlawgdon 6y agoI'd expect nothing less on HA than to shift the "essential talent" locus to the wonks. It is patently absurd.
- rurban 6y agoHaving worked in F1 can confirm. We even simulated the various aspects, engine, gearbox, vehicle (aerodynamics, breaks, tires, ...) and driver independently. So you can answer the question when you place this driver (the AI driver) into this model, what the difference would be. But normally this question is moot as you test the most important aspects, which are now the engine and aerodynamics. But don't forget, some drivers are excellent engineers by themselves, which was ie critical for Ferrari to get proper feedback from testing to R&D. In older times they didn't have simulators as everyone else, they always tested in real conditions on their home track Maranello. Or look at Niki Lauda's famous feedback and analysis qualities. You don't get that just from engineering. Another important aspect: budget. Money can buy better simulation and engineering, which you cannot really compete with. That's why it needs to be so heavily regulated.