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The YouTube suggestion algorithm is the problem! Create a new account, watch any political video, and then click through the suggestions. Keep clicking throug

• formerly_proven 6y ago
  I remember the day I learned that Youtube comes preinstalled on iOS devices -- because the Youtube app somehow (despite never being used, let alone being logged into Google) managed to put a push notification on my home screen -- a push notification for a new upload from a fringe alt-right channel with just a few thousand views. Naturally, every single recommended video on that video was alt-right and far right wing with some Neonazis sprinkled in. Social media drives antisocial behavior and social division intentionally, because these bring huge numbers of clicks and thus ad money.
  • buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
    Youtube hasn't come preinstalled on iOS for like 8 years (removed in iOS 6).. so I really have no idea what you're getting at.
    • formerly_proven 6y ago
      Fair enough, according to my Apple ID history I did in fact install it a couple years ago. But the point still stands - the app wasn't used, not connected to any account, yet one day it still pushed extremist content to my home screen.
      • buzzerbetrayed 6y ago
        An app cannot send you push notifications unless you have opened the app and allowed push notifications (or gone in to settings an explicitly enabled them, which seems unlikely). So it is incorrect to say "the app wasn't used". It was obviously used, just maybe not in a long time. Sorry, I'm not trying to nitpick. But it seems like all you've said so far is "An app which I downloaded and enabled push notifications for sent me a push notification recommending a video I didn't agree with politically". The term "extremist content" can mean basically anything depending on who is speaking.
• dalbasal 6y ago
  This. Youtube, fb & such have monopolized online media. Then these problems "crop up," many as side effects of their own antipatterns. Now they have the public and politicians lobbying beseeching them to please do something... They're being handed the power to censor us, to deal with problems that they themselves create. There is a big difference between facebook and a Standard Oil or a Bell. Those companies were necessary. Post breakup, we still needed shards to produce oil, phone lines and such. If facebook was crushed to dust, there would be no shortage of social media.
• nineplay 6y ago
  You don't even have to watch a political video. I have crap popping up all the time, "Watch this professor get destroyed by <screamer>!" I know youtube is a shithole and yet it still surprises me. My son's favorite kid's show is only on YouTube so I created a new account, subscribed just to their channel and still inappropriate content shows up. How hard is this? I also can't block it for my daughter because she has school assignments that involve watching YouTube videos. Sooner or later that's going to bite the school in the ass.
  • bryan0 6y ago
    > I also can't block it for my daughter because she has school assignments that involve watching YouTube videos. Our school uses http://www.viewpure.com/ http://www.viewpure.com/ to avoid this. Also, I agree you don't even need to watch a political video to see political garbage on youtube. Last night they showed me some bizarre political conspiracy ad saying Pelosi and Harris are going to invoke the 25th amendment on Biden to make Harris the president. YouTube was promoting this nonsense at the top of the feed.
    • mlang23 6y ago
      I regularily see shady ads as well. This is the actual outrage IMO. Before going off and create a corporate censorship network, they should at least apply some "standars" to what they let through on the ad side. But I guess it is all too late. The Circle proofs to be a pretty prophetic book.
      • joelmichael 6y ago
        I subscribe to Youtube Premium. It's handy if you use Youtube a lot and dislike ads.
        • bryan0 6y ago
          I agree but ideally I do not want to log in to youtube.
        • 6y ago
• legitster 6y ago
  I actually appreciate the suggestions, it's how I have found most of the content I enjoy, and it's an important way to let new YouTube channels get established. But yeah, I dread when someone sends me a politically charged video and suddenly my feed is full of crazy people.
• _greim_ 6y ago
  The YouTube suggestion algorithm is also amazing. As a hobbyist I find so much cool stuff completely unrelated to politics. I hope they can fix the bad without ruining the good, is what I'm saying.
  • runarberg 6y ago
    Agree. YouTube has some great content on it. Channels that I regularly follow include Technology Connections[1] (despite not being that much into electronics), Summoning Salt[2] (despite not playing video games), PBS Eons[3]. There is also some good political content there (including Lindsey Ellis[4] and vlogbrothers[5]). Despite this YouTube really needs to wake up to the fact that some of it’s content is really toxic and potentially dangerous, and that it potentially suggests this toxic content to an unsuspecting audience. Optimally it wouldn’t do that, while still suggesting some of the great content there. 1: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCtUbO6rBht0daVIOGML3c8w 2: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy0tKL1T7wFoYcxCe0xjN6Q https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCy0tKL1T7wFoYcxCe0xjN6Q 3: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzR-rom72PHN9Zg7RML9EbA https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCzR-rom72PHN9Zg7RML9EbA 4: https://www.youtube.com/user/chezapoctube https://www.youtube.com/user/chezapoctube 5: https://www.youtube.com/user/vlogbrothers https://www.youtube.com/user/vlogbrothers
• theptip 6y ago
  How is this different from the outrage factories of the tabloid news? Is YouTube’s approach to extremist content different from a tabloid in any way other than efficiency/reach? Are we really complaining about a basic aspect of human psychology rather than a business innovation from these companies? If we smash YouTube, what about the tabloid press? How do we actually regulate this stuff in a consistent way? (And how do we do it inside the confines of the first amendment?)
  • cwhiz 6y ago
    I won't accidentally end up on some outrage tabloid news site if I start at AP News and start clicking articles. There is nothing wrong with outrage tabloid news existing, but it shouldn't be something that I accidentally happen upon while browsing normal news. YouTube will just send you to extremist crap if you keep watching suggested videos long enough.
    • theptip 6y ago
      Fair. Is this qualitatively or just quantitatively different from discovery in previous generations; flicking through the channels you see Fox when you normally choose MSNBC. Or flicking through the newspapers on the rack you see USA Today on your way to picking up NYTimes. I think part of it at least is that you simply get recommended way more things now than then; the shocking recommendations are the only ones we remember. I do also agree that there is some sort of feedback loop going on here that wasn’t happening as strongly before, and I have a vague hunch that bots / astroturfers may be amplifying these feedback loops in ways that didn’t apply to previous generations.
• dandersh 6y ago
  The algorithm makes sense in certain cases, such as music or tv shows, but it's not a one size fits all solution. Another issue is the use of autoplay (which is enabled by default in chrome on my phone), where they keep shoveling more content at you even if you didn't intend to watch more.
• goodluckchuck 6y ago
  No, the problem is that extremist content is a nonsense concept. Specifically, there's no reliable way of determining whether content is "extremist content" because a lot of information that the political and religious extremes focus on is actually true information. It often these extreme views that provide unique insights and the most valuable information. So how - and moreover why - should Youtube try to sift through a physics lecture on metallurgy and attempt to differentiate it from a physics lecture on metallurgy. There's often no way of knowing whether the lecture is being given by a college physics professor or a 9/11 truther, except by examining the contents - and both might be telling the truth. Heck the college physics professor could be a 9/11 truther and the truther could be a college professor... that doesn't mean that this lecture on metallurgy should be removed from the college's account. The fact that some people can't tell the difference between an Einstein and a wannabe Einstein doesn't mean that we should censor them both.
  • WarOnPrivacy 6y ago
    > There's often no way of knowing whether the lecture is being given by a college physics professor or a 9/11 truther, except by examining the contents Exactly this. Your points about extremist content stand as well. We've countless examples of NGOs that fight extremism, that get their content taken down due to algorithmic monitoring. AI aren't capable of this sort of nuanced decision making and there is no evidence that they're going to be capable in the near future. The only method to achieve consistent, quality content monitoring involves human eyes backed by qualified human judgment.
    • goodluckchuck 6y ago
      That's the how, but not the why. A free flow of information is a net good. Restricting information is a net bad. Western society learned this 400 years ago. These are the same arguments which were used against the printing press, now being used against the internet, fighting against a new enlightenment the same way that the church fought to maintain their monopoly on knowledge. All combating "extremism" does is protect entrenched stakeholders from the truth. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapere_aude https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sapere_aude
• beervirus 6y ago
  > Show people the videos they have subscribed or searched for, and that's it. I dunno, there's value in suggesting related content. If I subscribe to a woodworking channel, and Youtube suggests other woodworking content... that doesn't seem like a problem.
  • ratww 6y ago
    Related content, sure, but the problem with extremist videos in Youtube (at least for the GP, but also for me and my friends) is that they pop up out of nowhere.
  • cwhiz 6y ago
    I think the suggestions are insidious and lead to binge viewing by design. However, adults are adults, and they can make their own decisions. I am okay with suggestions in general but maybe they should be completely removed for news or political content. And they should be removed for kids accounts. It should not be possible to search for a Biden or Trump speech and half an hour later, through suggestion surfing alone, you are viewing alt-right or antifa extremist content.
• janoside 6y ago
  We cannot expect any actor (human or otherwise) to act against their own best interest. Google/Youtube, an entity with incentives, will act to maximize it's share of your time spent with them - it cannot function any other way, lest a competitor does that job better and they are destroyed/bought. We can wish for the underlying dynamics to be different, but they are what they are. All of society is currently lost in hopeless battles, fighting the "tides" - in this case underlying incentive structures. You can wish for legislation to save you from your outrage - to shatter these companies into little pieces. But legislation doesn't change underlying incentives. In fact, legislation nearly universally distorts incentives further from what you wish them to be. For example, in this case, fear of legislative action against "Big Tech" having too much power/influence/misinformation-potential, is likely the underlying cause for their inclination toward censorship. The classic Walmart South Park episode is a nice visual syllogism for this idea. I offer no solutions at the level of "society", but at the individual level I offer you to consider that "outrage" is a waste of your time and your emotion. Easier said than done, I know.
  • kazinator 6y ago
    All else being the same, an actor will also minimize its cost and effort. Youtube can captivate viewers even if its suggestion system doesn't select videos for quality, so why bother implementing it.
• kazinator 6y ago
  > Create a new account, watch any political video, and then click through the suggestions. Keep clicking through the suggestions and in hour you will be on some extremist nonsense. Could that simply be the inevitable effect of Youtube being filled with garbage? It seems that suggestions linked to the current video by some keyword match (or whatever) but otherwise random would have this problem. E.g. if you pick a good political YT video on some topic, and then randomly select half a dozen other YT videos on the same topic, they are probably garbage. So while the selection process isn't blameless (it could be improved to promote quality videos) much of the fault lies with the quality of the available material. How would the selection process promote quality? How does the machine know that? You can't tell from the likes and dislikes; such populist metrics would promote garbage all the same. It seems that it would require a large team of workers to curate videos.