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“Here's my strategy on the Cold War: we win, they lose.” ― Ronald Reagan I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that this strategy has to be adopted with Ch
by zpeti 6y ago
“Here's my strategy on the Cold War: we win, they lose.” ― Ronald Reagan
I think it's becoming clearer and clearer that this strategy has to be adopted with China as well. They are out to win, to dominate the world, and they won't back down, and they will use any method to do it. And ask yourself if the world you see inside China is what you want spreading.
- andi999 6y agoAny evidence for that claim?
- ianleeclark 6y agoIt should be acknowledged that this strategy ultimately ended up with the Taliban and our 20+ year occupation of Afghanistan and various massacres throughout central america. > The presidency of Ronald Reagan in the United States was marked by multiple scandals, resulting in the investigation, indictment, or conviction of over 138 administration officials Which was (still is?) The most for any president.
- zpeti 6y agoAnd the freeing of half of Europe from tyranny. The reduction in threat of nuclear annihilation of the world. The opening up of huge amounts of the world to free trade and prosperity.
- ianleeclark 6y agoI'm not really interested in defending one regime or another, but let's try not to have death squads raping nuns this time.
- arethuza 6y agoI think it's fair to say that the role of US policies, and Reagan's policies in particular, on the fall of the Soviet Union is a matter of some debate.
- 082349872349872 6y agoFahd often doesn't get the credit I think he ought: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24740207 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=24740207
- christkv 6y agoAnd the rest of Europe avoiding an invasion from the Soviet Union due to NATO and us security guarantees.
- preommr 6y agoIt's easy to say in hindsight, but Reagan's attitude could easily have escalated the cold war and caused a nuclear attack. The entire debacle during the cold war was less strong and smart political leaders and more pure luck. We now know that there were people that, if they had followed protocol, would have taken that extra step to nuclear deployment. The only reason they didn't is sheer, dumb luck. If the lessons we learn from history are to deify the actions of men like Reagan, then I truly hope that we have more of that luck in our future.
- marvin 6y agoYour points on nuclear brinkmanship are good. It's an absolutely horrible prospect. But what do you suggest as an alternative? Standing by and doing nothing is certainly not my preferred option. If the premise is that the export of tyranny must be stopped, what should be done? Reducing the problem to its absurd conclusion: ceding liberties because the risk of war is too great, is not an acceptable choice. Hopefully today's reality will not be that extreme, but that's ultimately where we'll end up.
- 542354234235 6y ago> The reduction in threat of nuclear annihilation of the world He also walked away from what would have been the most monumental nuclear reductions agreement, including the elimination of all ICBMs and possibly all strategic nuclear weapons in both countries, because he refused to give up the pipe dream of the Star Wars program. [1] > the freeing of half of Europe from tyranny. While Reagan’s foreign policy did play a part, the fall of the USSR was more a culmination of decades of economic stagnation, decades of costly arms race military spending, and an incredibly costly and unpopular war in Afghanistan (that sounds familiar). Also Mikhail Gorbachev and his radical policy shifts with Glasnost and Perestroika played a massive part in setting the stage for the collapse. It could also be argued that Bush Sr’s policy shift to a lighter touch in Europe to allow for the revolutions to proceed organically, as opposed to Reagan pushing them with American support, allowed Gorbachev to avoid coups and stay in power to oversee a peaceful collapse, rather than a violent last spasm that many hardliners wanted. Reagan absolutely had a part to play, but he was by no means the architect of the end of the USSR. [1] https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/ronald-reagans-disarmament-dream/422244/ https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2016/01/ronald-...
- jiuahweruihawi 6y agoI mean, it also led to the fall of a tyrannical regime that murdered tens of millions and was every bit as sadistic and evil as Nazi Germany. So there's that.
- coldtea 6y agoDid it led to that? Because the "tyrannical regime" was progressively more open since the 60s, and it fell all by itself actually...
- jiuahweruihawi 6y agoWell whether or not Reagan's strategy of "we win, they lose" was the cause, what's beyond dispute is that America won and the Soviets lost. To which I say, thank fucking God.
- Miner49er 6y agoIs the US really much better than China? We do similar to black, Native American, and immigrant people. I'm not sure I want either winning in their current state.
- zpeti 6y agoThe US has concentration camps for blacks, native americans and immigrants, where they reeducate you to follow a tyrannical political system? Are they tracked through a social credit system where you can't get a train out of your town if it's bad? Where journalists repeteadly disappear? Where a treaty with the UK is ripped up and a city is invaded? Yeah. Accurate.
- herbstein 6y agoWell, the US does have the concentration camps at the border where forced surgeries and sterilizations are being performed.
- frequentnapper 6y agoOn a massive scale? Proof?
- PopeDotNinja 6y agoAnd the entire prison system.
- chaostheory 6y agoCamps yes, but if you're going to be technical, it's actually spread through out the United States and not just at the border and it is bad when you compare it to other developed countries. Forced surgeries and sterilizations? For a claim like that, you're going to have to cite a credible source. As imperfect as we are, we're not as bad as China.
- jskdvsksnb 6y ago> A report claims women in immigration centers are being given unnecessary procedures that can leave them unable to conceive. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/21/unwanted-hysterectomy-allegations-ice-georgia-immigration https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/sep/21/unwanted-hys...
- arethuza 6y agoWorth noting that when Reagan was saying that the Soviets were actually absolutely terrified of US aggression - to the point where the almost started a pre-emptive nuclear war to stop it. However, to Reagan's credit he did tone things down a bit when it was explained to him that the Soviets really did think the US would attack them.
- 082349872349872 6y agoTo be fair, far more US boots have been on USSR soil than USSR boots on US. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Russian_Civil_War https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Allied_intervention_in_the_Rus... (learned when I was wondering why the US had had war propaganda offices devoted to Arkhangelsk and Vladivostok)
- ASlave2Gravity 6y agoI'm gonna get a lot of flak for this, but I think there's a massive anti-China narrative on HN. I see so much talk that's based off of people's view from an entirely Western media-centred POV. There's so much more to what's going on. There's a lot of pot calling the kettle black too. There's a lot of good stuff in the TLS from a few weeks back. Han is the cultural race/ethnicity in mainland China. [0] It's about 92% of the population. So that's a lot of people. Is China trying to sure up its borders? Yes. Is China out for world domination, I really don't think so. Every single one of my Chinese friends is about as sweet as they come. China is the new mystery to the West, and I don't think people in the West really understand them. The amount of growth in China is outrageous. We've outsourced so much there, and then have a go at them for stuff we don't really understand. I think GP is right in ways. I think there are some nefarious actors in China running the same plays from the playbook written by the Anglosphere war powers, but to lump it all in a say 'China bad' is, in my very under-read / under-experienced, opinion, a terrible thing. 他们很好 - Hope I've got my characters right! Tāmen hěn hǎo Even the language isn't like ours. It's more direct and blunt. [0] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Han_Chinese
- peteretep 6y ago> Is China out for world domination, I really don't think so. Every single one of my Chinese friends is about as sweet as they come. ... is this satire? Edit: or do you believe there’s some kind of correlation between some individual Chinese you know and the CPCs plans?
- ASlave2Gravity 6y agoThis isn't satire. I knew I was gonna get a lot of flak. I'm sorry to have so many dissagree with me :(. I have no idea what the CPCs plans are. Much like I have no idea what my own goverments (UK) plans are. But what I do see is this kinda news creates a hatered, and that hatered finds it's ways into the culture at large, and I don't think that's a good thing. e: and yes, I honestly belive that in China things work so diffrently to the West, that a sample of the people can actually give you a good read on what the powers are thinking / doing. Maybe cos they are all brain-washed ;) who really knows. All I'm saying is, let's try and be civil!
- scotty79 6y agoThe world I see inside USA doesn't seem like something worth spreading either.
- mclightning 6y agoI'm not sure if we would all feel that safe sharing that sentiment in an internet run by China. West might be failing in a lot of things, but it is best we have.
- scotty79 6y agoI'm only posting this because I never intend to visit American soil. Otherwise I wouldn't dare. Because I know that these kinds of messages might be connected to my person and used against me if I ever come in conflict with American enforcement.
- wil421 6y agoHow would you know what it was like in America if you’ve never even visited?
- throwaway4good 6y agoIf you were poor muslim peasant - where would you rather live? In China controlled Xinjiang or next door in US controlled Afghanistan? China and the US are both empires. What happens on the periphery is not always pretty. But to pretend one is good and the other is evil is stupid at best and dangerous as worst.
- LargoLasskhyfv 6y agoHarrharrharr. Ronny Raygun, really? Got something for you: [0] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlBIa8z_Mts https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TlBIa8z_Mts Genesis - Land of Confusion (Official Music Video), 1986, 5min28sec