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We also have a fractured policy landscape in the US. We have weakened federal regulations due to the denier in chief and his former-coal-lobbyist EPA director.

We also have a fractured policy landscape in the US. We have weakened federal regulations due to the denier in chief and his former-coal-lobbyist EPA director. We also have a lot of states with great renewable potential, either solar or wind, that because of their fossil industry and corruption in politics, leads to denialism and slowing of renewable progress. Contrast that to the EU, where most member states are energy importers and don't have their own fossil fuels to use. If they do, then like Germany or Poland, they still use a LOT of coal. It's easier for UK to be done with coal: they mined up all of theirs and used it already. Add these factors onto a much more literate and well-educated populace who reads about and cares about climate, and we have an EU that is leading but still not perfect. So, in general, the US has great potential, but there is definitely the most progress happening in Europe.

dmos62 6y ago
> denier in chief First time I'm hearing this reference. It's cute. > [EU/UK has] a much more literate and well-educated populace I'd like to agree that it's all well and good on this front in the EU, but recent developments like Brexit and the rise of identity politics stand as strong counter-arguments.
- DissidentSci 6y ago
  Isn't hackernews meant to be politics free? Would be great if there was at least one place we didn't need to read these tiresome comments from people who can't comprehend that others have different value systems.
  - dragonwriter 6y ago
    > Isn't hackernews meant to be politics free? No, though there was a brief experiment in that direction in, IIRC, late 2016 that was aborted before it had run its planned one-week course.
  - dmos62 6y ago
    If HN were politics free, we couldn't discuss our differences or maybe even know about them. To defend what I said, I think it's easy to argue that Brexit was rash and short-sighted (the campaigns were more or less based on lies) and identity politics are short-sighted more or less by definition (since cooperation is proportional to inclusiveness of identity). If you'd like to have a discussion, those are my arguments.
  - WhompingWindows 6y ago
    Your name is dissident science, I'm guessing you're skeptical about the mainstream of science? So, tell us, what are your "different value systems" that support Trump's denial of climate science? I don't think it's a stretch to call the current Commander in Chief a "Denier in Chief". When asked about climate during the two debates, he obfuscates and talks about forest floor litter or OPEC-negotiation for low gas prices. When asked about global warming, he claimed "It'll get colder". He can't come out and say fossil fuel combustion leads to atmospheric change that warms the planet. To say that would be to go against his party, which is pro-fossil fuel and takes big money from big energy companies (but the GOP is also pro-renewable, might I add, look at Iowa, TX, and many red states doing well on renewables). Hackernews is supposed to be about technology, which is governed at its core by the objective reality of 0/1 binary transistors and the complex scientific/logical systems we've built to interact with that science. It's not a stretch to support science on this forum. If you're going against the grain of science, I'd say SUPPORT your position, don't just state your position and ask for moderator take-down of an opposing view.
- redis_mlc 6y ago
  > but recent developments like Brexit and the rise of identity politics I'm glad you posted, since events have clarified recently. It's generally agreed that Brexit is a good thing for Britain long-term, and that the migrant crisis is a disaster for the EU.
silvestrov 6y ago
> fractured policy landscape in the US are you saying that the EU is more uniform politically than the US?
- lhorie 6y ago
  IMHO, US politics are extremely polarized. Politics elsewhere tend to be a much more nuanced spectrum, with large moderate bases.
  - throwaway894345 6y ago
    There's a lot of money to be had by making sure Americans are divided and not united against corporate interests. In addition to limiting corporate lobbying (including fixing the lobbyist/regulator revolving door), campaign donations, etc, I would really like to see more research into how media and social media influence polarization, and perhaps some regulation around social media curation.
  - pydry 6y ago
    It's less about the polarization and more about the dominance of the hydrocarbon lobby. In Europe it just isn't as powerful. It's the same story with a few lobbies - especially gun manufacturing and HMO. The most successful lobbies may favor one side but they are pretty bipartisan.
- torwayburger 6y ago
  I think perhaps this holds for specifically climate science and the politics around it.
- epistasis 6y ago
  Even the Conservatives in the UK are backing wind, with a goal of 40 GW recently announced. Meanwhile in the US, even though conservative voters show majority support for clean energy in polls, conservative politicians sabotage clean energy policy, and work to convince voters against their clean energy views, because their campaign funds come from fossil fuel interests. This leads to much less certainty for investors that policy will stay consistent long enough for projects to come to fruition. When a bought and paid for election destroys policy, like was recently exposed in Ohio, it keeps investors' money away. https://www.energyandpolicy.org/utility-corruption/ https://www.energyandpolicy.org/utility-corruption/
C1sc0cat 6y ago
There's still coal in the UK and it is high quality compared to say Germany - but it was initially a political decision by Thatchers government to switch to Gas, to hobble the NUM. You right that the federal nature of the USA is holding it back - might have been ok for 18th century rich farmers a twenty-first century supper power not so much.
nradov 6y ago
The US has the more well-educated populace. A larger percentage of Americans have college degrees than in every EU country except Luxembourg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_...
- WhompingWindows 6y ago
  Completion of tertiary education =/= "well educated" necessarily. Consider the math and reading scores of our children, which lag behind many other countries. Consider the poor state of public schooling in urban and rural areas. There's also a cultural difference, many European areas may have a more pro-knowledge or pro-truth mindset, whereas "American values" are often incongruous with the actual facts established by science.

dmos62 6y ago

> denier in chief First time I'm hearing this reference. It's cute. > [EU/UK has] a much more literate and well-educated populace I'd like to agree that it's all well and good on this front in the EU, but recent developments like Brexit and the rise of identity politics stand as strong counter-arguments.

DissidentSci 6y ago
Isn't hackernews meant to be politics free? Would be great if there was at least one place we didn't need to read these tiresome comments from people who can't comprehend that others have different value systems.
- dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Isn't hackernews meant to be politics free? No, though there was a brief experiment in that direction in, IIRC, late 2016 that was aborted before it had run its planned one-week course.
- dmos62 6y ago
  If HN were politics free, we couldn't discuss our differences or maybe even know about them. To defend what I said, I think it's easy to argue that Brexit was rash and short-sighted (the campaigns were more or less based on lies) and identity politics are short-sighted more or less by definition (since cooperation is proportional to inclusiveness of identity). If you'd like to have a discussion, those are my arguments.
- WhompingWindows 6y ago
  Your name is dissident science, I'm guessing you're skeptical about the mainstream of science? So, tell us, what are your "different value systems" that support Trump's denial of climate science? I don't think it's a stretch to call the current Commander in Chief a "Denier in Chief". When asked about climate during the two debates, he obfuscates and talks about forest floor litter or OPEC-negotiation for low gas prices. When asked about global warming, he claimed "It'll get colder". He can't come out and say fossil fuel combustion leads to atmospheric change that warms the planet. To say that would be to go against his party, which is pro-fossil fuel and takes big money from big energy companies (but the GOP is also pro-renewable, might I add, look at Iowa, TX, and many red states doing well on renewables). Hackernews is supposed to be about technology, which is governed at its core by the objective reality of 0/1 binary transistors and the complex scientific/logical systems we've built to interact with that science. It's not a stretch to support science on this forum. If you're going against the grain of science, I'd say SUPPORT your position, don't just state your position and ask for moderator take-down of an opposing view.
redis_mlc 6y ago
> but recent developments like Brexit and the rise of identity politics I'm glad you posted, since events have clarified recently. It's generally agreed that Brexit is a good thing for Britain long-term, and that the migrant crisis is a disaster for the EU.

silvestrov 6y ago

> fractured policy landscape in the US are you saying that the EU is more uniform politically than the US?

lhorie 6y ago
IMHO, US politics are extremely polarized. Politics elsewhere tend to be a much more nuanced spectrum, with large moderate bases.
- throwaway894345 6y ago
  There's a lot of money to be had by making sure Americans are divided and not united against corporate interests. In addition to limiting corporate lobbying (including fixing the lobbyist/regulator revolving door), campaign donations, etc, I would really like to see more research into how media and social media influence polarization, and perhaps some regulation around social media curation.
- pydry 6y ago
  It's less about the polarization and more about the dominance of the hydrocarbon lobby. In Europe it just isn't as powerful. It's the same story with a few lobbies - especially gun manufacturing and HMO. The most successful lobbies may favor one side but they are pretty bipartisan.
torwayburger 6y ago
I think perhaps this holds for specifically climate science and the politics around it.
epistasis 6y ago
Even the Conservatives in the UK are backing wind, with a goal of 40 GW recently announced. Meanwhile in the US, even though conservative voters show majority support for clean energy in polls, conservative politicians sabotage clean energy policy, and work to convince voters against their clean energy views, because their campaign funds come from fossil fuel interests. This leads to much less certainty for investors that policy will stay consistent long enough for projects to come to fruition. When a bought and paid for election destroys policy, like was recently exposed in Ohio, it keeps investors' money away. https://www.energyandpolicy.org/utility-corruption/ https://www.energyandpolicy.org/utility-corruption/

C1sc0cat 6y ago

There's still coal in the UK and it is high quality compared to say Germany - but it was initially a political decision by Thatchers government to switch to Gas, to hobble the NUM. You right that the federal nature of the USA is holding it back - might have been ok for 18th century rich farmers a twenty-first century supper power not so much.

nradov 6y ago

The US has the more well-educated populace. A larger percentage of Americans have college degrees than in every EU country except Luxembourg. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_education_attainment https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_tertiary_...

WhompingWindows 6y ago
Completion of tertiary education =/= "well educated" necessarily. Consider the math and reading scores of our children, which lag behind many other countries. Consider the poor state of public schooling in urban and rural areas. There's also a cultural difference, many European areas may have a more pro-knowledge or pro-truth mindset, whereas "American values" are often incongruous with the actual facts established by science.