4 ms·

Collective bargaining is a big win for the working class (and yes, that includes tech). Even though we get paid a good chunk in the USA, our overall benefit pa

by diob 6y ago

Collective bargaining is a big win for the working class (and yes, that includes tech). Even though we get paid a good chunk in the USA, our overall benefit package is thin in comparison to other developed countries. Not to mention our healthcare situation. Unfortunately, the scare tactics and propaganda of large corporations have won out in the USA. Folks hate collective bargaining with a passion.

thelean12 6y ago
> Even though we get paid a good chunk in the USA, our overall benefit package is thin in comparison to other developed countries. What do you mean by this? I mean I guess I get less PTO than other countries, but I get way more pay. I could just take a month of unpaid vacation if I wanted to, and still make more than my European counterparts. Tech also gets great healthcare (unless you work for a startup or something I'd guess). Not disagreeing that unions would probably be a net-positive for tech workers, but saying that tech in the USA gets a worse "benefit package" is pretty dishonest.
- diob 6y ago
  Parental leave, vacation, healthcare, retirement, are all typically better in other developed countries. I, like you, get paid a heck of a lot more than my friends in those countries, but if something happens to me (say I get caught up in a mass shooting or get cancer like most do) I'm going to be on my own (gofundme?). We're ruggedly individualistic to a fault. Ultimately, I think we agree though, since you're saying it would be a net positive. The options you mentioned (taking unpaid PTO) are possible, but there are many employers who would then see you as unreliable (unless you're top level in terms of skill). I also think it takes a great deal of privilege to say "I can negotiate so who cares". While I agree with you that negotiation is important (it's how I got my current salary), you should think about those who come from poorer / less secure backgrounds. These people often don't want to blow their chance, so they take whatever offer comes their way. It's kind of a "rich get richer" thing, where those with confidence (growing up with a well off family, hence a safety net) are the main ones negotiating. Do not underestimate the importance of a safety net when it comes to negotiating, even for yourself. One thing that keeps me at my 9-5 job is knowing I need healthcare and a place to sleep with electricity (I have a lifelong genetic condition, sleep apnea, which untreated will result in my untimely death). My family is abusive, narcissistic, and unreliable. Being so incredibly on my own, I'm extremely risk averse. I imagine others, who might need insulin or some other thing would be the same. So ultimately, I find the "just negotiate" line to be at best naive, at worst unempathetic.
lotsofpulp 6y ago
As EduardoBautista points out in an adjacent comment, everyone likes to believe they are top 10%, and are able to or will be able to command pay (and some measure of income security that can't be converted into a number) a few standard deviations higher than the mean. The whole temporarily embarrassed millionaire, individual exceptionalism, hero worship is a quintessential part of American culture, one that definitely helps employers in their price negotiation with employees.
- diob 6y ago
  Exactly, I would be willing to bet a lot of these folks would be upset / embarrassed if they knew the a coworker they thought to be below them was in fact commanding a higher salary. Thing is, it's likely to be true. You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid what you negotiate. But the ability to negotiate is a privilege. I go into this a bit more in a sibling comment.
- heavyset_go 6y ago
  > The whole temporarily embarrassed millionaire, individual exceptionalism, hero worship is a quintessential part of American culture, one that definitely helps employers in their price negotiation with employees. Which is ironic, because the same SAG-AFTRA that negotiates multi-million dollar contracts for movie stars is the same union that represents background actors and actors in infomercials.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I'm not talking about benefit packages or healthcare, I'm talking about the specific issue of cost-of-living based relocation pay cuts. I'm pretty sure that employees at e.g. Google are satisfied with their benefit packages and healthcare. I will say that much of the reason I don't want to join a union comes from this kind of response, where advocates disregard discussions of specific policies in favor of sweeping statements about class issues. I don't think an organization trying to declare class warfare between software engineers and managers would be able to effectively represent my interests.
- TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
  Here's a reminder of relatively recent history: https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/did-steve-jobs-lower-your-salary.html https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/did-steve-jobs-lower-your-... In any case not everyone works for FAANG, and even those that do can suffer unfair termination, various forms of discrimination, or other issues. The reality in the US that productivity has outstripped wages since the 70s. This has been a huge and tragic net loss for general prosperity, because when wealth is concentrated and workers deal with debt and rent-seeking - from college loans, healthcare, high property prices, and others - the cost-of-entry for a viable small businesses becomes unreachably high. Startups are not s substitute for small-but-profitable small businesses, some of which have the potential to become much larger businesses through genuine organic growth rather than investor goosing. Unionisation isn't about your personal circumstances, it's about everyone's personal circumstances. Part of it is about keeping wages high precisely because this gives smart creative people to build new businesses if they choose to. And before someone says "But what about wage costs?" - remember, you are paying inflated costs anyway, but with no benefit. You're paying them to people who tend to be extremely rich already - health insurance companies, banks, landlords, property speculators, and financial speculators. If you pay them to workers you get the Fordist model of increased general prosperity with more people with more money being able to afford - and create - more of everything.
- AshWolfy 6y ago
  We gotta realize the interest of managers is to get us to work more for less. That being said if you wanna talk about specific policies union workers have better pay and benefits, and have better work places, not to mention gives us a political voice.

by diob 6y ago

thelean12 6y ago

> Even though we get paid a good chunk in the USA, our overall benefit package is thin in comparison to other developed countries. What do you mean by this? I mean I guess I get less PTO than other countries, but I get way more pay. I could just take a month of unpaid vacation if I wanted to, and still make more than my European counterparts. Tech also gets great healthcare (unless you work for a startup or something I'd guess). Not disagreeing that unions would probably be a net-positive for tech workers, but saying that tech in the USA gets a worse "benefit package" is pretty dishonest.

diob 6y ago
Parental leave, vacation, healthcare, retirement, are all typically better in other developed countries. I, like you, get paid a heck of a lot more than my friends in those countries, but if something happens to me (say I get caught up in a mass shooting or get cancer like most do) I'm going to be on my own (gofundme?). We're ruggedly individualistic to a fault. Ultimately, I think we agree though, since you're saying it would be a net positive. The options you mentioned (taking unpaid PTO) are possible, but there are many employers who would then see you as unreliable (unless you're top level in terms of skill). I also think it takes a great deal of privilege to say "I can negotiate so who cares". While I agree with you that negotiation is important (it's how I got my current salary), you should think about those who come from poorer / less secure backgrounds. These people often don't want to blow their chance, so they take whatever offer comes their way. It's kind of a "rich get richer" thing, where those with confidence (growing up with a well off family, hence a safety net) are the main ones negotiating. Do not underestimate the importance of a safety net when it comes to negotiating, even for yourself. One thing that keeps me at my 9-5 job is knowing I need healthcare and a place to sleep with electricity (I have a lifelong genetic condition, sleep apnea, which untreated will result in my untimely death). My family is abusive, narcissistic, and unreliable. Being so incredibly on my own, I'm extremely risk averse. I imagine others, who might need insulin or some other thing would be the same. So ultimately, I find the "just negotiate" line to be at best naive, at worst unempathetic.

lotsofpulp 6y ago

As EduardoBautista points out in an adjacent comment, everyone likes to believe they are top 10%, and are able to or will be able to command pay (and some measure of income security that can't be converted into a number) a few standard deviations higher than the mean. The whole temporarily embarrassed millionaire, individual exceptionalism, hero worship is a quintessential part of American culture, one that definitely helps employers in their price negotiation with employees.

diob 6y ago
Exactly, I would be willing to bet a lot of these folks would be upset / embarrassed if they knew the a coworker they thought to be below them was in fact commanding a higher salary. Thing is, it's likely to be true. You don't get paid what you're worth, you get paid what you negotiate. But the ability to negotiate is a privilege. I go into this a bit more in a sibling comment.
heavyset_go 6y ago
> The whole temporarily embarrassed millionaire, individual exceptionalism, hero worship is a quintessential part of American culture, one that definitely helps employers in their price negotiation with employees. Which is ironic, because the same SAG-AFTRA that negotiates multi-million dollar contracts for movie stars is the same union that represents background actors and actors in infomercials.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

I'm not talking about benefit packages or healthcare, I'm talking about the specific issue of cost-of-living based relocation pay cuts. I'm pretty sure that employees at e.g. Google are satisfied with their benefit packages and healthcare. I will say that much of the reason I don't want to join a union comes from this kind of response, where advocates disregard discussions of specific policies in favor of sweeping statements about class issues. I don't think an organization trying to declare class warfare between software engineers and managers would be able to effectively represent my interests.

TheOtherHobbes 6y ago
Here's a reminder of relatively recent history: https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/did-steve-jobs-lower-your-salary.html https://www.inc.com/suzanne-lucas/did-steve-jobs-lower-your-... In any case not everyone works for FAANG, and even those that do can suffer unfair termination, various forms of discrimination, or other issues. The reality in the US that productivity has outstripped wages since the 70s. This has been a huge and tragic net loss for general prosperity, because when wealth is concentrated and workers deal with debt and rent-seeking - from college loans, healthcare, high property prices, and others - the cost-of-entry for a viable small businesses becomes unreachably high. Startups are not s substitute for small-but-profitable small businesses, some of which have the potential to become much larger businesses through genuine organic growth rather than investor goosing. Unionisation isn't about your personal circumstances, it's about everyone's personal circumstances. Part of it is about keeping wages high precisely because this gives smart creative people to build new businesses if they choose to. And before someone says "But what about wage costs?" - remember, you are paying inflated costs anyway, but with no benefit. You're paying them to people who tend to be extremely rich already - health insurance companies, banks, landlords, property speculators, and financial speculators. If you pay them to workers you get the Fordist model of increased general prosperity with more people with more money being able to afford - and create - more of everything.
AshWolfy 6y ago
We gotta realize the interest of managers is to get us to work more for less. That being said if you wanna talk about specific policies union workers have better pay and benefits, and have better work places, not to mention gives us a political voice.