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The problem is that you can’t realistically fight Holocaust denial and the idea behind it with arguments at some point. In the interest of “proving” Germany was

The problem is that you can’t realistically fight Holocaust denial and the idea behind it with arguments at some point. In the interest of “proving” Germany wasn’t the bad guys after all, these people won’t stop sowing doubt that it occurred, and that’s exactly how you would allow it to happen again. The German democracy is designed to defend itself, and this is one of its tools. Interestingly, the American sort of overzealous defense of freedom of speech no matter what misunderstands how freedoms need to work. Every freedom has its limits (you don’t have the freedom to kill someone for example), but they need to be well defined. That’s all. > The simple expression of an idea w/o the intent to cause harm to another party, and the sole intention of discourse should be protected no matter what. Right, but the thing is that simply voicing this supposed opinion does harm by invalidating the crime against millions of people. That’s the whole point.

raxxorrax 6y ago
Then fight it by ignoring it. It is how virality works on the internet.
- ephimetheus 6y ago
  Sure but ignoring it is precisely how you let it happen again, and I’m not down with having that on my conscience.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    People on the far right want to provoke. Engaging them isn't how you deal with them. 10 years ago they were ignored and we had far fewer problems with them. It was actually funny seeing them trying to connect to groups. Anime fans, gamers, they even draw my little pony shit. But they made little inroads into these communities. Only as those groups were also accused by the self declared inquisition of good is when lines were blurred. Of course they reacted poorly. You don't need science or studies here, it is self evident. Helping a self fulfilling prophecy isn't in my interest. Look what Germany has caused with its laws to enforce speech codes (NetzDG). 2 weeks later Russia had its version ready to suppress dissent. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdowns-inspired-the-worlds-dictators-russia-venezuela-india/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdow... Being stupid about it can let it happen again. Don't be stupid about it.
  - jovial_cavalier 6y ago
    Ignoring =/= Forgetting
jovial_cavalier 6y ago
>The problem is that you can’t realistically fight Holocaust denial and the idea behind it with arguments at some point. It sounds like you're a holocaust denier. If they're wrong, then show they're wrong. (not saying they're right). If they refuse to believe, then ignore them. They are a fringe. >these people won’t stop sowing doubt that it occurred Diversity of thought is strictly a good thing. The very thing you are worried about is a lack of diversity of thought. A world where questioning the superiority of certain groups of people is tantamount to a crime. Let them sow doubt, it keeps the marketplace of ideas healthy by giving people reasons to articulate the truth. >Every freedom has its limits This is sloppy. Either you embrace free expression as an ideal, or you don't. Anything short of free speech absolutism will decay back down to suppression and censorship. I don't think it's hard to separate out expression from incitement, and I believe the former should be unbounded.

raxxorrax 6y ago

Then fight it by ignoring it. It is how virality works on the internet.

ephimetheus 6y ago
Sure but ignoring it is precisely how you let it happen again, and I’m not down with having that on my conscience.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  People on the far right want to provoke. Engaging them isn't how you deal with them. 10 years ago they were ignored and we had far fewer problems with them. It was actually funny seeing them trying to connect to groups. Anime fans, gamers, they even draw my little pony shit. But they made little inroads into these communities. Only as those groups were also accused by the self declared inquisition of good is when lines were blurred. Of course they reacted poorly. You don't need science or studies here, it is self evident. Helping a self fulfilling prophecy isn't in my interest. Look what Germany has caused with its laws to enforce speech codes (NetzDG). 2 weeks later Russia had its version ready to suppress dissent. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdowns-inspired-the-worlds-dictators-russia-venezuela-india/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdow... Being stupid about it can let it happen again. Don't be stupid about it.
- jovial_cavalier 6y ago
  Ignoring =/= Forgetting

jovial_cavalier 6y ago

>The problem is that you can’t realistically fight Holocaust denial and the idea behind it with arguments at some point. It sounds like you're a holocaust denier. If they're wrong, then show they're wrong. (not saying they're right). If they refuse to believe, then ignore them. They are a fringe. >these people won’t stop sowing doubt that it occurred Diversity of thought is strictly a good thing. The very thing you are worried about is a lack of diversity of thought. A world where questioning the superiority of certain groups of people is tantamount to a crime. Let them sow doubt, it keeps the marketplace of ideas healthy by giving people reasons to articulate the truth. >Every freedom has its limits This is sloppy. Either you embrace free expression as an ideal, or you don't. Anything short of free speech absolutism will decay back down to suppression and censorship. I don't think it's hard to separate out expression from incitement, and I believe the former should be unbounded.