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>Holocaust denial is banned in Germany (same as swastikas by the way). It works really well In what way does it "work"? What do you actually gain by silencing

>Holocaust denial is banned in Germany (same as swastikas by the way). It works really well In what way does it "work"? What do you actually gain by silencing those people? It seems like you're lending them credibility. As in "these things that I'm saying are so dangerous that the government wants to shut me up!" You can't control what people actually believe, you can only control whether or not you hear about it. Using the state to do this for you instead of a block button is dangerous and inefficient. >Free speech has limits. No it doesn't. Free speech with limits isn't free speech. The simple expression of an idea w/o the intent to cause harm to another party, and the sole intention of discourse should be protected no matter what. No matter how distasteful it is, holocaust denial falls into this category.

vharuck 6y ago
>The simple expression of an idea w/o the intent to cause harm to another party, and the sole intention of discourse should be protected no matter what. The point is Holocaust denial is often used as a foot in the door to spread racial animosity, which has caused harm. It can be hard to determine what's legitimate research and debate versus racist dog whistling. But people recognize it's having a real effect in the world, and the marketplace of ideas hasn't quashed it over the past 70 years. I'm all for Facebook removing anything like Holocaust denial or debate over it's existence. That's a good trade-off: prevent a gradual acceptance of racism at the cost of not being a good venue for Holocaust history researchers. But I'm not for the government taking action. Just my anti-establishment American streak.
ephimetheus 6y ago
The problem is that you can’t realistically fight Holocaust denial and the idea behind it with arguments at some point. In the interest of “proving” Germany wasn’t the bad guys after all, these people won’t stop sowing doubt that it occurred, and that’s exactly how you would allow it to happen again. The German democracy is designed to defend itself, and this is one of its tools. Interestingly, the American sort of overzealous defense of freedom of speech no matter what misunderstands how freedoms need to work. Every freedom has its limits (you don’t have the freedom to kill someone for example), but they need to be well defined. That’s all. > The simple expression of an idea w/o the intent to cause harm to another party, and the sole intention of discourse should be protected no matter what. Right, but the thing is that simply voicing this supposed opinion does harm by invalidating the crime against millions of people. That’s the whole point.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Then fight it by ignoring it. It is how virality works on the internet.
  - ephimetheus 6y ago
    Sure but ignoring it is precisely how you let it happen again, and I’m not down with having that on my conscience.
    - raxxorrax 6y ago
      People on the far right want to provoke. Engaging them isn't how you deal with them. 10 years ago they were ignored and we had far fewer problems with them. It was actually funny seeing them trying to connect to groups. Anime fans, gamers, they even draw my little pony shit. But they made little inroads into these communities. Only as those groups were also accused by the self declared inquisition of good is when lines were blurred. Of course they reacted poorly. You don't need science or studies here, it is self evident. Helping a self fulfilling prophecy isn't in my interest. Look what Germany has caused with its laws to enforce speech codes (NetzDG). 2 weeks later Russia had its version ready to suppress dissent. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdowns-inspired-the-worlds-dictators-russia-venezuela-india/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdow... Being stupid about it can let it happen again. Don't be stupid about it.
    - jovial_cavalier 6y ago
      Ignoring =/= Forgetting
- jovial_cavalier 6y ago
  >The problem is that you can’t realistically fight Holocaust denial and the idea behind it with arguments at some point. It sounds like you're a holocaust denier. If they're wrong, then show they're wrong. (not saying they're right). If they refuse to believe, then ignore them. They are a fringe. >these people won’t stop sowing doubt that it occurred Diversity of thought is strictly a good thing. The very thing you are worried about is a lack of diversity of thought. A world where questioning the superiority of certain groups of people is tantamount to a crime. Let them sow doubt, it keeps the marketplace of ideas healthy by giving people reasons to articulate the truth. >Every freedom has its limits This is sloppy. Either you embrace free expression as an ideal, or you don't. Anything short of free speech absolutism will decay back down to suppression and censorship. I don't think it's hard to separate out expression from incitement, and I believe the former should be unbounded.

vharuck 6y ago

>The simple expression of an idea w/o the intent to cause harm to another party, and the sole intention of discourse should be protected no matter what. The point is Holocaust denial is often used as a foot in the door to spread racial animosity, which has caused harm. It can be hard to determine what's legitimate research and debate versus racist dog whistling. But people recognize it's having a real effect in the world, and the marketplace of ideas hasn't quashed it over the past 70 years. I'm all for Facebook removing anything like Holocaust denial or debate over it's existence. That's a good trade-off: prevent a gradual acceptance of racism at the cost of not being a good venue for Holocaust history researchers. But I'm not for the government taking action. Just my anti-establishment American streak.

ephimetheus 6y ago

The problem is that you can’t realistically fight Holocaust denial and the idea behind it with arguments at some point. In the interest of “proving” Germany wasn’t the bad guys after all, these people won’t stop sowing doubt that it occurred, and that’s exactly how you would allow it to happen again. The German democracy is designed to defend itself, and this is one of its tools. Interestingly, the American sort of overzealous defense of freedom of speech no matter what misunderstands how freedoms need to work. Every freedom has its limits (you don’t have the freedom to kill someone for example), but they need to be well defined. That’s all. > The simple expression of an idea w/o the intent to cause harm to another party, and the sole intention of discourse should be protected no matter what. Right, but the thing is that simply voicing this supposed opinion does harm by invalidating the crime against millions of people. That’s the whole point.

raxxorrax 6y ago
Then fight it by ignoring it. It is how virality works on the internet.
- ephimetheus 6y ago
  Sure but ignoring it is precisely how you let it happen again, and I’m not down with having that on my conscience.
  - raxxorrax 6y ago
    People on the far right want to provoke. Engaging them isn't how you deal with them. 10 years ago they were ignored and we had far fewer problems with them. It was actually funny seeing them trying to connect to groups. Anime fans, gamers, they even draw my little pony shit. But they made little inroads into these communities. Only as those groups were also accused by the self declared inquisition of good is when lines were blurred. Of course they reacted poorly. You don't need science or studies here, it is self evident. Helping a self fulfilling prophecy isn't in my interest. Look what Germany has caused with its laws to enforce speech codes (NetzDG). 2 weeks later Russia had its version ready to suppress dissent. https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdowns-inspired-the-worlds-dictators-russia-venezuela-india/ https://foreignpolicy.com/2019/11/06/germany-online-crackdow... Being stupid about it can let it happen again. Don't be stupid about it.
  - jovial_cavalier 6y ago
    Ignoring =/= Forgetting
jovial_cavalier 6y ago
>The problem is that you can’t realistically fight Holocaust denial and the idea behind it with arguments at some point. It sounds like you're a holocaust denier. If they're wrong, then show they're wrong. (not saying they're right). If they refuse to believe, then ignore them. They are a fringe. >these people won’t stop sowing doubt that it occurred Diversity of thought is strictly a good thing. The very thing you are worried about is a lack of diversity of thought. A world where questioning the superiority of certain groups of people is tantamount to a crime. Let them sow doubt, it keeps the marketplace of ideas healthy by giving people reasons to articulate the truth. >Every freedom has its limits This is sloppy. Either you embrace free expression as an ideal, or you don't. Anything short of free speech absolutism will decay back down to suppression and censorship. I don't think it's hard to separate out expression from incitement, and I believe the former should be unbounded.