7 ms·

"Loves"? Or "embraces" (with the intention to extend)? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040

by cs702 6y ago

tomnipotent 6y ago
Anyone bringing up EEE 20 years after the fact loses all credibility in a 2020 conversation around Microsoft.
- Nullabillity 6y ago
  Yeah, how dare anyone learn from history?!
  - tomnipotent 6y ago
    Yes, it's about as useful as couples bringing up two-decade old issues in fights they're having today. The Microsoft from 20 years ago does not look anything like the Microsoft of today, and trying to pretend it is is lazy and dishonest.
    - Nullabillity 6y ago
      > Yes, it's about as useful as couples bringing up two-decade old issues in fights they're having today. VSCode, Edge, .NET Core, WSL, DX12, deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers, ... And then you have the stereotypically anti-user bullshit, like the telemetry and enforced upgrades.
      - tomnipotent 6y ago
        > VSCode, Edge, .NET Core, WSL, DX12 All things generally loved by the community (except Edge). > deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers I find nothing doing a quick search for this. Do you have any evidence of this? > like the telemetry and enforced upgrades Neither of which have proven harmful to their users, other than the inconvenience of a forced restart. I'd rather have forced upgrades than the mayhem that existed before. How do these have ANYTHING to do with Microsoft from 20 years ago?
        nitrogen 6y ago
        Neither of which have proven harmful to their users I don't think it's a good faith argument to redefine proven harm to exclude all of the harms that people have complained about.
        tomnipotent 6y ago
        > exclude all of the harms that people have complained about. Where are the harms? No, really. It's bad faith to claim people grumbling about inconveniences are somehow being "harmed".
        f1refly 6y ago
        I have yet to see a human being thats happy about Microsoft edge that's getting shoved down his throat every other windows update. Or one that loves the way every mildly interesting aspect about vscode is proprietary. Or directx12, because why support vulkan when you can just continue locking as many programs to your platform as possible. Also both telemetry and forced updates impose a giant problem for all administrators in every coporation i worked for since widows 10 was deployed, because they want to get rid of it from a security point of view but management refuses. A former colleague of mine quit his job because he couldn't handle the responsibility and had develeoped serious problems with sleep and general wellbeing
        tomnipotent 6y ago
        > I have yet to see a human being thats happy about Microsoft edge that's getting shoved down his throat every other windows update I absolutely hate Edge, and feel the same away about being unable to uninstall Safari on iOS/macOS. > directx12, because why support vulkan when you can just continue locking as many programs to your platform as possible They've invested decades into DX, I see no reason they should abandon that IP. > Also both telemetry and forced updates impose a giant problem for all administrators Windows 10 has group policy controls for IT admins to disable forced upgrades and telemetry. This sounds like complete dramatization.
        6y ago
      - 1_player 6y ago
        > VSCode, .NET Core, WSL Care to explain what's wrong with them? What's anticompetitive about them? Or you just don't like them because "reasons"? > DX12 What is wrong with it? It's not like it's forced down your throat like Metal. You still have the choice of Vulkan and OpenGL > deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers Do you mind providing citations, instead of just causing flame wars with no solid argument on your side?
        Nullabillity 6y ago
        > Care to explain what's wrong with them? What's anticompetitive about them? Or you just don't like them because "reasons"? They're all sold in wildly misleading ways. VSCode is open source according to the website, but the FOSS build is missing a lot of the advertised features (like, say, the extension manager...). Same with .NET Core. Sure, the compiler and core libraries are open source (if you can find the real thing, rather than the umpteen facades that they pollute their repos with)... But core tools like the debugger are still closed and deliberately locked to only work with (the branded, closed builds of) VSCode. That's not a huge problem if it at least had proper support for printf debugging (like Rust's `Debug`). But of course that's not a thing, because why would you ever use anything else than VSCode? WSL is sold as a drop-in compatibility layer, but WSL1 was missing a lot of core features (hell, SQLite wouldn't even run with its default settings). WSL2 is somewhat better, but still does a bunch of shady crap (no systemd or equivalent, DirectX-on-WSL, etc). > What is wrong with it? For one, there was just no need for it. The only reason for it to exist is to make it harder to port stuff away from Windows. If they had a problem with Vulkan's API (haven't really used either, so can't comment on the exact differences) then they could have designed it as a layer on top of Vulkan from the start. DXVK already proved that it's a viable approach. > It's not like it's forced down your throat like Metal. You still have the choice of Vulkan and OpenGL Xbox?
    - mixmastamyk 6y ago
      Forced telemetry, advertisements, and upgrades say otherwise.
    - GekkePrutser 6y ago
      But who says it can't be again? It's only a few years since they replaced Steve Ballmer. Nadella won't be there forever. I'd be more cautious too. Big companies have their own interests and it's usually not aligned with ours. I'd be less cautious with a company that has resisted going to the dark side. Microsoft definitely has been there. As an analogy: A criminal can serve their time and be released. But will you share a house with them?
      - tomnipotent 6y ago
        > Nadella won't be there forever. And? Someone else will take his place, who isn't Gates or Balmer and will have their own way of doing things. There isn't some magical Microsoft central force that pulls things a certain direction, it's people making decisions.
        GekkePrutser 6y ago
        Yes that's my point. It can easily change for the worse again. I don't want to be tied up in all their stuff once that happens (which my work is quickly doing lately)
        tomnipotent 6y ago
        > Yes that's my point. It can easily change for the worse again Hate to break it to you, so too does every other company you buy goods and services from. Do you take similar precautions for them?
        mixmastamyk 6y ago
        Yes.
- mhh__ 6y ago
  Why? They've basically given up on non-linux server now (in the large scale battle), but if Linux wasn't GPL do you think they wouldn't be EEE-ing?
  - tomnipotent 6y ago
    > basically given up on non-linux server now Where do you get this from? Microsoft has reported annual increases in Windows Server revenues for years. Does no one do research before posting about MS? Azure's market increased by supporting Linux, doesn't mean the Windows side suffered. > do you think they wouldn't be EEE-ing? Show me one example of EEE in the last 20 years. Go ahead, I'll wait.
Rusky 6y ago
Really don't see how that announcement is an "extend" move, despite the surface-level phrasing. They're piping host-side drivers through into WSL, only to immediately wrap them back up in Mesa OpenGL and Vulkan. Their use of the D3D API itself is purely an implementation detail, which doesn't lock anyone into WSL.
GekkePrutser 6y ago
Exactly. We're already seeing the world of Linux according to Microsoft now. It's one where Linux is ideally on Windows with WSL, uses proprietary stacks like DirectX and of course Edge. What I loved about Linux was that it was not encumbered by attempts to lock in intellectual property (with the idea of future monetising, of course). Yet all the big players are pushing lots of kernel patches to suit their own cloud-based use and ecosystems. Distributions are trying to lock-in like all the commercial players now. Consider Ubuntu with its snap store that can only be run by Canonical. I really don't like where Linux is headed now that Microsoft and the other big players love it so much... I'm strongly considering moving back to FreeBSD for a desktop. Yes there's Netflix with some input but that's about it.
- lima 6y ago
  > Consider Ubuntu with its snap store that can only be run by Canonical. That's a Canonical thing, what other Linux vendor does this? Distros have less lock-in than ever thanks to userland defragmentation.
- raxxorrax 6y ago
  Their new strategy is mostly marketing. Github was a strategic investment. I think they want their developers back and I think you are on spot with the commercializing of everything, Ubuntu certainly lost appeal.
chaostheory 6y ago
I disagree. Microsoft's motto is no longer "A computer (running Windows) in every house." The new motto is more or less "Be everywhere (so you can make money off everyone and everything)". Everywhere regardless of platform or device. You can see this with Azure hosting Nix. Azure hosting Playstation servers, or being able to use Microsoft Office on any browser or on iOS and Android. With this strategy, it doesn't matter what the next platform is because MS will be there.
mikecoles 6y ago
Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. It's the Microsoft Mantra.

"Loves"? Or "embraces" (with the intention to extend)? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040

by cs702 6y ago

"Loves"? Or "embraces" (with the intention to extend)? https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=23241040

tomnipotent 6y ago

Anyone bringing up EEE 20 years after the fact loses all credibility in a 2020 conversation around Microsoft.

Nullabillity 6y ago
Yeah, how dare anyone learn from history?!
- tomnipotent 6y ago
  Yes, it's about as useful as couples bringing up two-decade old issues in fights they're having today. The Microsoft from 20 years ago does not look anything like the Microsoft of today, and trying to pretend it is is lazy and dishonest.
  - Nullabillity 6y ago
    > Yes, it's about as useful as couples bringing up two-decade old issues in fights they're having today. VSCode, Edge, .NET Core, WSL, DX12, deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers, ... And then you have the stereotypically anti-user bullshit, like the telemetry and enforced upgrades.
    - tomnipotent 6y ago
      > VSCode, Edge, .NET Core, WSL, DX12 All things generally loved by the community (except Edge). > deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers I find nothing doing a quick search for this. Do you have any evidence of this? > like the telemetry and enforced upgrades Neither of which have proven harmful to their users, other than the inconvenience of a forced restart. I'd rather have forced upgrades than the mayhem that existed before. How do these have ANYTHING to do with Microsoft from 20 years ago?
      - nitrogen 6y ago
        Neither of which have proven harmful to their users I don't think it's a good faith argument to redefine proven harm to exclude all of the harms that people have complained about.
        tomnipotent 6y ago
        > exclude all of the harms that people have complained about. Where are the harms? No, really. It's bad faith to claim people grumbling about inconveniences are somehow being "harmed".
      - f1refly 6y ago
        I have yet to see a human being thats happy about Microsoft edge that's getting shoved down his throat every other windows update. Or one that loves the way every mildly interesting aspect about vscode is proprietary. Or directx12, because why support vulkan when you can just continue locking as many programs to your platform as possible. Also both telemetry and forced updates impose a giant problem for all administrators in every coporation i worked for since widows 10 was deployed, because they want to get rid of it from a security point of view but management refuses. A former colleague of mine quit his job because he couldn't handle the responsibility and had develeoped serious problems with sleep and general wellbeing
        tomnipotent 6y ago
        > I have yet to see a human being thats happy about Microsoft edge that's getting shoved down his throat every other windows update I absolutely hate Edge, and feel the same away about being unable to uninstall Safari on iOS/macOS. > directx12, because why support vulkan when you can just continue locking as many programs to your platform as possible They've invested decades into DX, I see no reason they should abandon that IP. > Also both telemetry and forced updates impose a giant problem for all administrators Windows 10 has group policy controls for IT admins to disable forced upgrades and telemetry. This sounds like complete dramatization.
        6y ago
    - 1_player 6y ago
      > VSCode, .NET Core, WSL Care to explain what's wrong with them? What's anticompetitive about them? Or you just don't like them because "reasons"? > DX12 What is wrong with it? It's not like it's forced down your throat like Metal. You still have the choice of Vulkan and OpenGL > deliberately crippling cross-platform Vulkan drivers Do you mind providing citations, instead of just causing flame wars with no solid argument on your side?
      - Nullabillity 6y ago
        > Care to explain what's wrong with them? What's anticompetitive about them? Or you just don't like them because "reasons"? They're all sold in wildly misleading ways. VSCode is open source according to the website, but the FOSS build is missing a lot of the advertised features (like, say, the extension manager...). Same with .NET Core. Sure, the compiler and core libraries are open source (if you can find the real thing, rather than the umpteen facades that they pollute their repos with)... But core tools like the debugger are still closed and deliberately locked to only work with (the branded, closed builds of) VSCode. That's not a huge problem if it at least had proper support for printf debugging (like Rust's `Debug`). But of course that's not a thing, because why would you ever use anything else than VSCode? WSL is sold as a drop-in compatibility layer, but WSL1 was missing a lot of core features (hell, SQLite wouldn't even run with its default settings). WSL2 is somewhat better, but still does a bunch of shady crap (no systemd or equivalent, DirectX-on-WSL, etc). > What is wrong with it? For one, there was just no need for it. The only reason for it to exist is to make it harder to port stuff away from Windows. If they had a problem with Vulkan's API (haven't really used either, so can't comment on the exact differences) then they could have designed it as a layer on top of Vulkan from the start. DXVK already proved that it's a viable approach. > It's not like it's forced down your throat like Metal. You still have the choice of Vulkan and OpenGL Xbox?
  - mixmastamyk 6y ago
    Forced telemetry, advertisements, and upgrades say otherwise.
  - GekkePrutser 6y ago
    But who says it can't be again? It's only a few years since they replaced Steve Ballmer. Nadella won't be there forever. I'd be more cautious too. Big companies have their own interests and it's usually not aligned with ours. I'd be less cautious with a company that has resisted going to the dark side. Microsoft definitely has been there. As an analogy: A criminal can serve their time and be released. But will you share a house with them?
    - tomnipotent 6y ago
      > Nadella won't be there forever. And? Someone else will take his place, who isn't Gates or Balmer and will have their own way of doing things. There isn't some magical Microsoft central force that pulls things a certain direction, it's people making decisions.
      - GekkePrutser 6y ago
        Yes that's my point. It can easily change for the worse again. I don't want to be tied up in all their stuff once that happens (which my work is quickly doing lately)
        tomnipotent 6y ago
        > Yes that's my point. It can easily change for the worse again Hate to break it to you, so too does every other company you buy goods and services from. Do you take similar precautions for them?
        mixmastamyk 6y ago
        Yes.
mhh__ 6y ago
Why? They've basically given up on non-linux server now (in the large scale battle), but if Linux wasn't GPL do you think they wouldn't be EEE-ing?
- tomnipotent 6y ago
  > basically given up on non-linux server now Where do you get this from? Microsoft has reported annual increases in Windows Server revenues for years. Does no one do research before posting about MS? Azure's market increased by supporting Linux, doesn't mean the Windows side suffered. > do you think they wouldn't be EEE-ing? Show me one example of EEE in the last 20 years. Go ahead, I'll wait.

Rusky 6y ago

Really don't see how that announcement is an "extend" move, despite the surface-level phrasing. They're piping host-side drivers through into WSL, only to immediately wrap them back up in Mesa OpenGL and Vulkan. Their use of the D3D API itself is purely an implementation detail, which doesn't lock anyone into WSL.

GekkePrutser 6y ago

Exactly. We're already seeing the world of Linux according to Microsoft now. It's one where Linux is ideally on Windows with WSL, uses proprietary stacks like DirectX and of course Edge. What I loved about Linux was that it was not encumbered by attempts to lock in intellectual property (with the idea of future monetising, of course). Yet all the big players are pushing lots of kernel patches to suit their own cloud-based use and ecosystems. Distributions are trying to lock-in like all the commercial players now. Consider Ubuntu with its snap store that can only be run by Canonical. I really don't like where Linux is headed now that Microsoft and the other big players love it so much... I'm strongly considering moving back to FreeBSD for a desktop. Yes there's Netflix with some input but that's about it.

lima 6y ago
> Consider Ubuntu with its snap store that can only be run by Canonical. That's a Canonical thing, what other Linux vendor does this? Distros have less lock-in than ever thanks to userland defragmentation.
raxxorrax 6y ago
Their new strategy is mostly marketing. Github was a strategic investment. I think they want their developers back and I think you are on spot with the commercializing of everything, Ubuntu certainly lost appeal.

chaostheory 6y ago

I disagree. Microsoft's motto is no longer "A computer (running Windows) in every house." The new motto is more or less "Be everywhere (so you can make money off everyone and everything)". Everywhere regardless of platform or device. You can see this with Azure hosting Nix. Azure hosting Playstation servers, or being able to use Microsoft Office on any browser or on iOS and Android. With this strategy, it doesn't matter what the next platform is because MS will be there.

mikecoles 6y ago

Embrace. Extend. Extinguish. It's the Microsoft Mantra.