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> In Georgia alone, police departments and sheriff’s offices have received more than 2,700 military rifles, night vision goggles and laser gun sights, and liter

> In Georgia alone, police departments and sheriff’s offices have received more than 2,700 military rifles, night vision goggles and laser gun sights, and literally hundreds of armored vehicles, including more than two dozen mine-resistant vehicles built to fight the war on terror abroad. How else will they protect themselves in the dangerous minefields of Atlanta? /s I’m glad someone has put together the data on this, but it’s entirely unsurprising that police cosplaying as the military murder more people. It’s dystopian as hell, and it baffles me that it’s a contentious issue rather than being universally condemned. Edit: added /s to relevant paragraph. I know, Poe's law, my bad.

bonestamp2 6y ago
The worst part about the police getting military gear is that the actual military has much stricter rules of engagement. With great power comes great responsibility.
- throwaway2048 6y ago
  Yep, even in a warzone, if a member of the US military killed somebody because they thought they were reaching for a gun, they would be court-martialed and put in jail, and then kicked out of the military after their sentence. The standard for police in the USA is appallingly low, and getting lower.
  - HarryHirsch 6y ago
    The hot head will at least get a bollocking from the captain that shooting people dead isn't how you pacify a town. Within the police, no such concerns.
  - pjc50 6y ago
    Well, apart from that guy who shot so many civilians that his colleagues kept bending his sights, who eventually got prosecuted for war crimes .. then pardoned by the President.
    - learc83 6y ago
      That says more about the President than anything else.
  - okasaki 6y ago
    Come on dude, we've all seen the drone footage showing the US blowing people to pieces for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
    - throwaway2048 6y ago
      As shitty as they are, drone strikes are operated by the CIA, and not subject to the military's rules of engagement, or military oversight, this is entirely on purpose.
- mcv 6y ago
  There was a story about a ex-marine police officer who accurately judged that a suspect did not need to be shot, and then got fired for not shooting him.
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    Here’s the link, if anyone’s interested in reading it: https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-lethal-force-cop-fired-west-virginia/ https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-leth... It’s frustrating and sad, like stories about this tend to be.
    - phobosanomaly 6y ago
      I stopped and read this. Thank you very much for sharing. It is excellent and very well-written. For anyone who hasn't read it, this is a similar, excellent article in the New Yorker on an ex-CIA officer's experience working as a beat cop on the streets of Atlanta. It dovetails magnificently with the ProPublica piece. The Spy Who Came Home: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-came-home https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-ca... I believe that the following three paragraph-long quotes serve as a sufficient tl;dr: "According to David M. Kennedy, one of the nation’s leading criminologists, American policing is practiced more as a craft than as a profession. “The kind of thinking that should go into framing and refining what a profession of public safety should be has still not been done,” he told me. Officers are deployed as enforcers of the state, without being taught psychology, anthropology, sociology, community dynamics, local history, or criminology. Lethal force is prioritized above other options. When Skinner joined the police force, everyone in his class was given a pistol, but none were given Tasers, because the department had run out." "At Georgia’s state police-training facilities, the focus is “all tactics and law,” Skinner told me. Officers are taught that “once you give a lawful order it has to be followed—and that means immediately.” But the recipient of a “lawful order” may not understand why it’s being issued, or that his or her failure to comply may lead to the use of force. There’s no training on how to de-escalate tense scenarios in which no crime has been committed, even though the majority of police calls fall into that category. It is up to the officer’s discretion to shape these interactions, and the most straightforward option is to order belligerent people to the ground and, if they resist, tackle them and put them in cuffs." "“This is how situations go so, so badly—yet justifiably, legally,” Skinner said. Police officers often encounter people during the worst moments of their lives, and Skinner believes that his role is partly to resolve trouble and partly to prevent people from crossing the line from what he calls “near-crime” into “actual crime.” The goal, he said, is “to slow things down, using the power of human interaction more than the power of the state.”"
- hguant 6y ago
  On paper. I hang out a lot with a lot of former US infantry guys on discord, and they talk all the time about how rule one was come back alive, and rule two was 'make sure you all get your stories straight.' This mythos of the American warfighter being above and beyond is propaganda. Good propaganda, because it has some basis in truth, but it whitewashes a lot of nastiness.
  - baq 6y ago
    at there are rules. you shouldn't have to go to Hague to win a case against your own sheriff.
  - MperorM 6y ago
    This was the case for the danish military in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. The people I feel worst for are the soldiers themselves. You're informed over and over about the rules of engagement, and when you get there none of it applies. If you don't shoot first, then your next to you friend will die. Obviously you're going to break the rules in that situation, it's what any human would do. Now you have to live the rest of your life, knowing you broke conventions. You should be tried like the war-criminal you are. Or so it feels. While I disagreed with the west's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, I have the utmost respect for the soldiers who fought there. They deserve a set of rules can realistically be followed.
- ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
  Propaganda. It’s the exact opposite.
opwieurposiu 6y ago
Police in Georgia literally throw hand grenades into the cribs of sleeping babies and get away with it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-georgia-deputy-acquitted-after-flash-bang-grenade-hurts-toddler-n479361 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-georgia-deputy-acqui...
- sandworm101 6y ago
  Flashbangs. They are violent, but in a totally different class than actual hand grenades. No police in the US use hand grenades. The kid in the crib survived. Had it been an actual grenade ... not a survivable event. https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/05/baby-in-coma-after-police-grenade-dropped-in-crib-during-drug-raid https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/05/baby-in-coma-...
  - 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
    Are you really defending the police grenading a baby.
    - mdorazio 6y ago
      Are you really purposely using the wrong word to force the conversation to fit your narrative?
      - deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        Wikipedia redirects "flashbang" to "stun grenade" and describes it as a "less lethal explosive device", so I'd say they're using the vernacular correctly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashbang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashbang
        bigwavedave 6y ago
fastball 6y ago
I was under the impression that one of the main reason police forces are getting "military gear" is because they're getting it at a steep discount due to the actual military not having anything else to do with it once they're done.
- asdasdasdas5453 6y ago
  I remember reading once that what you think of as military gear obtained at a steep discount is not the first thing that comes to mind : essentially air conditioning.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  IMO this is even less charitable, since it implies that more violent police departments are seeking out surplus military equipment to better subjugate civilians.
  - fastball 6y ago
    If you require a firearm, and you can buy a military surplus weapon which is cheaper than a new "civilian" firearm, wouldn't you?
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      Based on the study, it seems like the answer is "yes" for violent police departments and "no" for everyone else.
      - numpad0 6y ago
        There’s not much technical difference in “military rifles” from civilian AR15 other than military version has an extra pin and the finger groove
        jakelazaroff 6y ago
        On the other hand, there's presumably a significant technical difference between police cars and mine-resistant vehicles created for military operations in the Middle East.
nicoburns 6y ago
> How else will they protect themselves in the dangerous minefields of Atlanta? They could put the money into dealing with the social problems that cause it to be a "minefield". Their job is to protect citizens including criminals. They're not doing it properly if they're shooting people. And they're likely making people a lot more likely to shoot at them in the process.
- xenocratus 6y ago
  I think the parent comment is missing a "/s"arcasm tag there
- ritchiea 6y ago
  This is a great point, it's not in the job description of a police officer to punish criminals. But if you see the types of language that police officers frequently post with on social media, you see them framing themselves as warriors in a battle of good and evil. Cops shouldn't see suspects as evil they the cops themselves are at war with. Formally their job is to keep the peace, get the suspect into the justice system and allow the justice system to work. Instead cops view themselves as armed enforcers on the side of "good" that the cops themselves define ad hoc.
- dntrkv 6y ago
  The amount of money spent on this gear won't make a dent in resolving these societal issues. Our police are a bandaid on top of a deep wound that is our failings in mental health, poverty, and education.
- reificator 6y ago
  > They could put the money into dealing with the social problems that cause it to be a "minefield". I think you're missing the joke here, here's the relevant part of the gp: > > including more than two dozen mine-resistant vehicles built to fight the war on terror abroad. > How else will they protect themselves in the dangerous minefields of Atlanta?
  - nicoburns 6y ago
numpad0 6y ago
Or how else US Army get rid of barely used gears and armored vehicles unfit for their uses?

bonestamp2 6y ago

The worst part about the police getting military gear is that the actual military has much stricter rules of engagement. With great power comes great responsibility.

throwaway2048 6y ago
Yep, even in a warzone, if a member of the US military killed somebody because they thought they were reaching for a gun, they would be court-martialed and put in jail, and then kicked out of the military after their sentence. The standard for police in the USA is appallingly low, and getting lower.
- HarryHirsch 6y ago
  The hot head will at least get a bollocking from the captain that shooting people dead isn't how you pacify a town. Within the police, no such concerns.
- pjc50 6y ago
  Well, apart from that guy who shot so many civilians that his colleagues kept bending his sights, who eventually got prosecuted for war crimes .. then pardoned by the President.
  - learc83 6y ago
    That says more about the President than anything else.
- okasaki 6y ago
  Come on dude, we've all seen the drone footage showing the US blowing people to pieces for being in the wrong place at the wrong time.
  - throwaway2048 6y ago
    As shitty as they are, drone strikes are operated by the CIA, and not subject to the military's rules of engagement, or military oversight, this is entirely on purpose.
mcv 6y ago
There was a story about a ex-marine police officer who accurately judged that a suspect did not need to be shot, and then got fired for not shooting him.
- jakelazaroff 6y ago
  Here’s the link, if anyone’s interested in reading it: https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-lethal-force-cop-fired-west-virginia/ https://features.propublica.org/weirton/police-shooting-leth... It’s frustrating and sad, like stories about this tend to be.
  - phobosanomaly 6y ago
    I stopped and read this. Thank you very much for sharing. It is excellent and very well-written. For anyone who hasn't read it, this is a similar, excellent article in the New Yorker on an ex-CIA officer's experience working as a beat cop on the streets of Atlanta. It dovetails magnificently with the ProPublica piece. The Spy Who Came Home: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-came-home https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2018/05/07/the-spy-who-ca... I believe that the following three paragraph-long quotes serve as a sufficient tl;dr: "According to David M. Kennedy, one of the nation’s leading criminologists, American policing is practiced more as a craft than as a profession. “The kind of thinking that should go into framing and refining what a profession of public safety should be has still not been done,” he told me. Officers are deployed as enforcers of the state, without being taught psychology, anthropology, sociology, community dynamics, local history, or criminology. Lethal force is prioritized above other options. When Skinner joined the police force, everyone in his class was given a pistol, but none were given Tasers, because the department had run out." "At Georgia’s state police-training facilities, the focus is “all tactics and law,” Skinner told me. Officers are taught that “once you give a lawful order it has to be followed—and that means immediately.” But the recipient of a “lawful order” may not understand why it’s being issued, or that his or her failure to comply may lead to the use of force. There’s no training on how to de-escalate tense scenarios in which no crime has been committed, even though the majority of police calls fall into that category. It is up to the officer’s discretion to shape these interactions, and the most straightforward option is to order belligerent people to the ground and, if they resist, tackle them and put them in cuffs." "“This is how situations go so, so badly—yet justifiably, legally,” Skinner said. Police officers often encounter people during the worst moments of their lives, and Skinner believes that his role is partly to resolve trouble and partly to prevent people from crossing the line from what he calls “near-crime” into “actual crime.” The goal, he said, is “to slow things down, using the power of human interaction more than the power of the state.”"
hguant 6y ago
On paper. I hang out a lot with a lot of former US infantry guys on discord, and they talk all the time about how rule one was come back alive, and rule two was 'make sure you all get your stories straight.' This mythos of the American warfighter being above and beyond is propaganda. Good propaganda, because it has some basis in truth, but it whitewashes a lot of nastiness.
- baq 6y ago
  at there are rules. you shouldn't have to go to Hague to win a case against your own sheriff.
- MperorM 6y ago
  This was the case for the danish military in Iraq and Afghanistan as well. The people I feel worst for are the soldiers themselves. You're informed over and over about the rules of engagement, and when you get there none of it applies. If you don't shoot first, then your next to you friend will die. Obviously you're going to break the rules in that situation, it's what any human would do. Now you have to live the rest of your life, knowing you broke conventions. You should be tried like the war-criminal you are. Or so it feels. While I disagreed with the west's involvement in Iraq and Afghanistan, I have the utmost respect for the soldiers who fought there. They deserve a set of rules can realistically be followed.
ulisesrmzroche 6y ago
Propaganda. It’s the exact opposite.

opwieurposiu 6y ago

Police in Georgia literally throw hand grenades into the cribs of sleeping babies and get away with it. https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-georgia-deputy-acquitted-after-flash-bang-grenade-hurts-toddler-n479361 https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/ex-georgia-deputy-acqui...

sandworm101 6y ago
Flashbangs. They are violent, but in a totally different class than actual hand grenades. No police in the US use hand grenades. The kid in the crib survived. Had it been an actual grenade ... not a survivable event. https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/05/baby-in-coma-after-police-grenade-dropped-in-crib-during-drug-raid https://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2014/05/baby-in-coma-...
- 8fGTBjZxBcHq 6y ago
  Are you really defending the police grenading a baby.
  - mdorazio 6y ago
    Are you really purposely using the wrong word to force the conversation to fit your narrative?
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
    - jakelazaroff 6y ago
      Wikipedia redirects "flashbang" to "stun grenade" and describes it as a "less lethal explosive device", so I'd say they're using the vernacular correctly. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashbang https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flashbang
      - bigwavedave 6y ago

fastball 6y ago

I was under the impression that one of the main reason police forces are getting "military gear" is because they're getting it at a steep discount due to the actual military not having anything else to do with it once they're done.

asdasdasdas5453 6y ago
I remember reading once that what you think of as military gear obtained at a steep discount is not the first thing that comes to mind : essentially air conditioning.
jakelazaroff 6y ago
IMO this is even less charitable, since it implies that more violent police departments are seeking out surplus military equipment to better subjugate civilians.
- fastball 6y ago
  If you require a firearm, and you can buy a military surplus weapon which is cheaper than a new "civilian" firearm, wouldn't you?
  - jakelazaroff 6y ago
    Based on the study, it seems like the answer is "yes" for violent police departments and "no" for everyone else.
    - numpad0 6y ago
      There’s not much technical difference in “military rifles” from civilian AR15 other than military version has an extra pin and the finger groove
      - jakelazaroff 6y ago
        On the other hand, there's presumably a significant technical difference between police cars and mine-resistant vehicles created for military operations in the Middle East.

nicoburns 6y ago

> How else will they protect themselves in the dangerous minefields of Atlanta? They could put the money into dealing with the social problems that cause it to be a "minefield". Their job is to protect citizens including criminals. They're not doing it properly if they're shooting people. And they're likely making people a lot more likely to shoot at them in the process.

xenocratus 6y ago
I think the parent comment is missing a "/s"arcasm tag there
ritchiea 6y ago
This is a great point, it's not in the job description of a police officer to punish criminals. But if you see the types of language that police officers frequently post with on social media, you see them framing themselves as warriors in a battle of good and evil. Cops shouldn't see suspects as evil they the cops themselves are at war with. Formally their job is to keep the peace, get the suspect into the justice system and allow the justice system to work. Instead cops view themselves as armed enforcers on the side of "good" that the cops themselves define ad hoc.
dntrkv 6y ago
The amount of money spent on this gear won't make a dent in resolving these societal issues. Our police are a bandaid on top of a deep wound that is our failings in mental health, poverty, and education.
reificator 6y ago
> They could put the money into dealing with the social problems that cause it to be a "minefield". I think you're missing the joke here, here's the relevant part of the gp: > > including more than two dozen mine-resistant vehicles built to fight the war on terror abroad. > How else will they protect themselves in the dangerous minefields of Atlanta?
- nicoburns 6y ago

numpad0 6y ago

Or how else US Army get rid of barely used gears and armored vehicles unfit for their uses?