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> the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side. That's superficially true of the left everywhere and probably why i

> the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side. That's superficially true of the left everywhere and probably why it appeals so easily to young people. It's main purpose is to stand up for the poor which makes it appear humanitarian and ethical. But it only feels good on the surface because the left is generally also opposed to market freedom and property rights that benefit everybody, including the poor, in the long term. The right wing's humanitarianism comes as a long term consequence of wealth creation rather than something they want directly.

piva00 6y ago
> left is generally also opposed to market freedom and property rights How much is this patently true and how much of the left in the US is really against market freedom? What are you encompassing with "the left" here? Social democracies here in Europe are nowhere close to opposing market freedom and property rights. The opposition is mostly to complete unregulated markets, nothing much further than this at the moment. Even here in Sweden, which the media and people in the US like to paint as "socialist", is very far from being socialist... To the point where it's more a market economy with socialist ideas tackled on (welfare, comprehensive healthcare, free education, etc.) to disrupt markets that are inefficient or monopolistic in nature. The left don't even exist in the US, whenever I hear an American repeat what I quoted I laugh a little bit inside, it's a strawman based on thin air and fears for the most part.
- thu2111 6y ago
  Hmm, you might want to rethink that. Just this morning I was reading this: https://www.city-journal.org/california-race-coding-criteria-for-reopening https://www.city-journal.org/california-race-coding-criteria... Public health authorities in California have unveiled a “Blueprint for a Safer Economy” that requires counties to meet new “health equity metrics” in order to emerge from the current Covid-19 lockdowns. It’s a broad experiment in social justice. Under the plan, counties must reduce “disparities in levels of transmission” in “low-income, Black, Latino, [and] Pacific Islander” communities before they can move forward with reopening. In effect, local businesses must remain closed until local bureaucrats are satisfied that ill-defined racial quotas have been met. The American left can't normally push too hard against free markets because they lost that argument conclusively and completely when the USSR collapsed (really, a long time before). But now they see an opening, so suddenly businesses and markets are being held hostage: implement the left's current social agenda or else your businesses will be kept closed indefinitely for "health reasons". These are not the actions of people who see value in private enterprise.
  - bavell 6y ago
    Wow, that's disturbing and dystopian... thanks for posting.
- rayiner 6y ago
  The idea that “the left” doesn’t exist in the US is nonsense. We just had a democratic nomination cycle where every candidate except the eventual winner (but who at that time seemed down and our) promised to support this: https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109i.... Doesn’t that seem quite left? You’re correct that Sweden, etc., are market economies with welfare states tacked on. Sweden is cutting corporate taxes and investment taxes, partially privatizing its social security, etc. That was the model on the American left from Clinton through Obama. But that approach is pretty much dead ideologically as far as I can tell. Political candidates on the left don’t talk about markets anymore. One was booed during the primaries for supporting capitalism.
  - piva00 6y ago
    > The idea that “the left” doesn’t exist in the US is nonsense. We just had a democratic nomination cycle where every candidate except the eventual winner (but who at that time seemed down and our) promised to support this: https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109i https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109i.... Doesn’t that seem quite left? Seem quite left by the optics of the US, but: Tracker: This bill has the status Introduced Status of Legislation: Introduced Agreed to in House When it passes we can talk about leftist ideas being put in practice in the US, until then it's all talk and no show and we are tired of watching America's talk show... Agrandising a bill yet to be even introduced for voting is a show, I prefer political systems to be pragmatical. > You’re correct that Sweden, etc., are market economies with welfare states tacked on. Sweden is cutting corporate taxes and investment taxes, partially privatizing its social security, etc. That was the model on the American left from Clinton through Obama. This wasn't an effect localised in Sweden, the whole Third Way [0] on social democracies trying to embrace some neoliberal policies (be it for some kind of compromise or for true belief that this was the way forward). It happened across whole Europe, from the UK with Blair, to France and the US, its effects are still ongoing. In my opinion this was a failed experiment which the repercussions are still showing up. We can't have "ifs" in history but we can analyse the effects of these policies and the picture doesn't look pretty, both economically when viewed with the eyes of social democrats of the 70s (which I don't say would fare well in a contemporary society, those policies had its time and place and need updates) as politically when you see how much power the centre-left social democrats across Europe have lost. They tried to embrace where the pendulum swung and ultimately lost that race and also lost their own base. Political candidates on the left don't talk about markets anymore because neoliberal policies took over a lot on the previous 3 decades, from welfare to education, to healthcare. I only talk about these policies' negatives but I don't necessarily hold the opinion that it didn't have positive impacts in society, just believe its time is due. It's too ideological to be practical in the face of empirical evidence. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way

piva00 6y ago

> left is generally also opposed to market freedom and property rights How much is this patently true and how much of the left in the US is really against market freedom? What are you encompassing with "the left" here? Social democracies here in Europe are nowhere close to opposing market freedom and property rights. The opposition is mostly to complete unregulated markets, nothing much further than this at the moment. Even here in Sweden, which the media and people in the US like to paint as "socialist", is very far from being socialist... To the point where it's more a market economy with socialist ideas tackled on (welfare, comprehensive healthcare, free education, etc.) to disrupt markets that are inefficient or monopolistic in nature. The left don't even exist in the US, whenever I hear an American repeat what I quoted I laugh a little bit inside, it's a strawman based on thin air and fears for the most part.

thu2111 6y ago
Hmm, you might want to rethink that. Just this morning I was reading this: https://www.city-journal.org/california-race-coding-criteria-for-reopening https://www.city-journal.org/california-race-coding-criteria... Public health authorities in California have unveiled a “Blueprint for a Safer Economy” that requires counties to meet new “health equity metrics” in order to emerge from the current Covid-19 lockdowns. It’s a broad experiment in social justice. Under the plan, counties must reduce “disparities in levels of transmission” in “low-income, Black, Latino, [and] Pacific Islander” communities before they can move forward with reopening. In effect, local businesses must remain closed until local bureaucrats are satisfied that ill-defined racial quotas have been met. The American left can't normally push too hard against free markets because they lost that argument conclusively and completely when the USSR collapsed (really, a long time before). But now they see an opening, so suddenly businesses and markets are being held hostage: implement the left's current social agenda or else your businesses will be kept closed indefinitely for "health reasons". These are not the actions of people who see value in private enterprise.
- bavell 6y ago
  Wow, that's disturbing and dystopian... thanks for posting.
rayiner 6y ago
The idea that “the left” doesn’t exist in the US is nonsense. We just had a democratic nomination cycle where every candidate except the eventual winner (but who at that time seemed down and our) promised to support this: https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109ih.pdf https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109i.... Doesn’t that seem quite left? You’re correct that Sweden, etc., are market economies with welfare states tacked on. Sweden is cutting corporate taxes and investment taxes, partially privatizing its social security, etc. That was the model on the American left from Clinton through Obama. But that approach is pretty much dead ideologically as far as I can tell. Political candidates on the left don’t talk about markets anymore. One was booed during the primaries for supporting capitalism.
- piva00 6y ago
  > The idea that “the left” doesn’t exist in the US is nonsense. We just had a democratic nomination cycle where every candidate except the eventual winner (but who at that time seemed down and our) promised to support this: https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109i https://www.congress.gov/116/bills/hres109/BILLS-116hres109i.... Doesn’t that seem quite left? Seem quite left by the optics of the US, but: Tracker: This bill has the status Introduced Status of Legislation: Introduced Agreed to in House When it passes we can talk about leftist ideas being put in practice in the US, until then it's all talk and no show and we are tired of watching America's talk show... Agrandising a bill yet to be even introduced for voting is a show, I prefer political systems to be pragmatical. > You’re correct that Sweden, etc., are market economies with welfare states tacked on. Sweden is cutting corporate taxes and investment taxes, partially privatizing its social security, etc. That was the model on the American left from Clinton through Obama. This wasn't an effect localised in Sweden, the whole Third Way [0] on social democracies trying to embrace some neoliberal policies (be it for some kind of compromise or for true belief that this was the way forward). It happened across whole Europe, from the UK with Blair, to France and the US, its effects are still ongoing. In my opinion this was a failed experiment which the repercussions are still showing up. We can't have "ifs" in history but we can analyse the effects of these policies and the picture doesn't look pretty, both economically when viewed with the eyes of social democrats of the 70s (which I don't say would fare well in a contemporary society, those policies had its time and place and need updates) as politically when you see how much power the centre-left social democrats across Europe have lost. They tried to embrace where the pendulum swung and ultimately lost that race and also lost their own base. Political candidates on the left don't talk about markets anymore because neoliberal policies took over a lot on the previous 3 decades, from welfare to education, to healthcare. I only talk about these policies' negatives but I don't necessarily hold the opinion that it didn't have positive impacts in society, just believe its time is due. It's too ideological to be practical in the face of empirical evidence. [0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Way