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I think this is something people no longer seem to understand about journalism that’s generally speaking symptomatic of the growing polarization and tribalism i

I think this is something people no longer seem to understand about journalism that’s generally speaking symptomatic of the growing polarization and tribalism in modern thought (if you could call it that). People seem to think that every news outlet is red or blue, and furthermore that the journalists have absolutely no autonomy. This is not true. Part of the reason the Times is a reputable source is because they publish things that tow the red/blue line along with self criticism and corrections like this....unfortunately people can’t stomach nuance and alternative view points, just consider the outrage the Times faced a few moths ago for publishing the (admittedly stupid) opinion of a republican politician who was advocating for federal response to the Gerorge Floyd protests. Inability to have rational argument and not get immediately heated in the face of an opposite opinion is a major flaw of proponents of both the right and left....the one thing that vindicates the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side. The internet helps us all live in our own personal realities and not have to ever deign to have a civil conversation with someone who disagrees with us.

23B1 6y ago
> Inability to have rational argument and not get immediately heated in the face of an opposite opinion is a major flaw of proponents of both the right and left....the one thing that vindicates the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side. The irony of this statement is astounding
- piva00 6y ago
  > The irony of this statement is astounding Care to spell it out?
wolco2 6y ago
"the one thing that vindicates the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side" Not sure the left is vindicated for "ethical" stances or actions. Pro abortion, assisted end of life, corrupt unions, free speak, gay marriage, larger government waste are things traditionally seen as things associated with the left and unethical by some. Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom.
- bawolff 6y ago
  If everyone agrees with you its not really an ethical stance. (Although you have to go pretty far afield from mainstream western civilization to find people who actively disagree with freedom of speech in principle) > Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. I dont know about that, but the definition of right and left (and freedom) change over time and geographic location. Nonetheless both sides are routed in values, just different ones ("freedom" is a value)
- esperent 6y ago
  > Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. I presume you're talking about the US so I'll offer a European perspective: whatever about traditional standpoints, in recent times the "left" (democrats) are the party of values, lying somewhere right of center, while the "right" (republicans) are starting to toy with fascism but are currently merely quite far to the right in the region of oligarchy. You guys are in sore need of an actual left leaning political party to balance things out.
  - thyrsus 6y ago
    The Democratic Socialists of America exist, with a platform mildly more ambitious than the Sanders/Ocasio-Cortez wing of the Democratic Party. The less fascist voting public ignores them, the more fascist voting public believes they are the second coming of Stalin.
  - rayiner 6y ago
    Democrats are left of center compared to Europe, and their most progressive base is solidly left of center. This chart predates their significant shift further left after 2016: https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/hazard_germanyprimer_0821_2_revised-mobile1.png https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/hazar...
  - wolco2 6y ago
    Interesting definitely location changes my comment. If the left parties are right of centre are they still left leaning parties?
jdkee 6y ago
“ People seem to think that every news outlet is red or blue, and furthermore that the journalists have absolutely no autonomy.” Why wouldn’t consumers of the news think that? The siloed Fox News model of outrage journalism has been adapted by the left, as it generates clicks and advertising dollars.
refurb 6y ago
Matt Taibbi has been focused on this lately. His theory is that polarization and writing for one side makes more money. He's done a few scathing articles about the mainstream media's abandonment of traditional media values of impartiality (as much as they can be) and not publishing innuendo and rumor. Some of his work is pretty insightful, especially the time when the gov't leaked to a reporter, who wrote a story, and then the gov't got a search warrant by pointing to the article and saying "see, there is something here!".
- branweb 6y ago
  Taibbi, Greenwald, and a few others have been providing some eye-opening criticism of contemporary media. Delighted to see his name mentioned here.
lopmotr 6y ago
> the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side. That's superficially true of the left everywhere and probably why it appeals so easily to young people. It's main purpose is to stand up for the poor which makes it appear humanitarian and ethical. But it only feels good on the surface because the left is generally also opposed to market freedom and property rights that benefit everybody, including the poor, in the long term. The right wing's humanitarianism comes as a long term consequence of wealth creation rather than something they want directly.
- piva00 6y ago
  > left is generally also opposed to market freedom and property rights How much is this patently true and how much of the left in the US is really against market freedom? What are you encompassing with "the left" here? Social democracies here in Europe are nowhere close to opposing market freedom and property rights. The opposition is mostly to complete unregulated markets, nothing much further than this at the moment. Even here in Sweden, which the media and people in the US like to paint as "socialist", is very far from being socialist... To the point where it's more a market economy with socialist ideas tackled on (welfare, comprehensive healthcare, free education, etc.) to disrupt markets that are inefficient or monopolistic in nature. The left don't even exist in the US, whenever I hear an American repeat what I quoted I laugh a little bit inside, it's a strawman based on thin air and fears for the most part.
  - thu2111 6y ago
    Hmm, you might want to rethink that. Just this morning I was reading this: https://www.city-journal.org/california-race-coding-criteria-for-reopening https://www.city-journal.org/california-race-coding-criteria... Public health authorities in California have unveiled a “Blueprint for a Safer Economy” that requires counties to meet new “health equity metrics” in order to emerge from the current Covid-19 lockdowns. It’s a broad experiment in social justice. Under the plan, counties must reduce “disparities in levels of transmission” in “low-income, Black, Latino, [and] Pacific Islander” communities before they can move forward with reopening. In effect, local businesses must remain closed until local bureaucrats are satisfied that ill-defined racial quotas have been met. The American left can't normally push too hard against free markets because they lost that argument conclusively and completely when the USSR collapsed (really, a long time before). But now they see an opening, so suddenly businesses and markets are being held hostage: implement the left's current social agenda or else your businesses will be kept closed indefinitely for "health reasons". These are not the actions of people who see value in private enterprise.
rayiner 6y ago
> Inability to have rational argument and not get immediately heated in the face of an opposite opinion is a major flaw of proponents of both the right and left....the one thing that vindicates the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side. People on the left think this because they don’t understand the social value of the things the right cares about. They look around at a world where people seem ragged and unhappy, and think we got here because we don’t have enough of this or that government benefit. They assign zero weight to all of the other things that make for a humane life.

23B1 6y ago

piva00 6y ago
> The irony of this statement is astounding Care to spell it out?

wolco2 6y ago

"the one thing that vindicates the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side" Not sure the left is vindicated for "ethical" stances or actions. Pro abortion, assisted end of life, corrupt unions, free speak, gay marriage, larger government waste are things traditionally seen as things associated with the left and unethical by some. Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom.

bawolff 6y ago
If everyone agrees with you its not really an ethical stance. (Although you have to go pretty far afield from mainstream western civilization to find people who actively disagree with freedom of speech in principle) > Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. I dont know about that, but the definition of right and left (and freedom) change over time and geographic location. Nonetheless both sides are routed in values, just different ones ("freedom" is a value)
esperent 6y ago
> Traditionally the right was the party of values and the left was the party of freedom. I presume you're talking about the US so I'll offer a European perspective: whatever about traditional standpoints, in recent times the "left" (democrats) are the party of values, lying somewhere right of center, while the "right" (republicans) are starting to toy with fascism but are currently merely quite far to the right in the region of oligarchy. You guys are in sore need of an actual left leaning political party to balance things out.
- thyrsus 6y ago
  The Democratic Socialists of America exist, with a platform mildly more ambitious than the Sanders/Ocasio-Cortez wing of the Democratic Party. The less fascist voting public ignores them, the more fascist voting public believes they are the second coming of Stalin.
- rayiner 6y ago
  Democrats are left of center compared to Europe, and their most progressive base is solidly left of center. This chart predates their significant shift further left after 2016: https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/hazard_germanyprimer_0821_2_revised-mobile1.png https://fivethirtyeight.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/08/hazar...
- wolco2 6y ago
  Interesting definitely location changes my comment. If the left parties are right of centre are they still left leaning parties?

jdkee 6y ago

“ People seem to think that every news outlet is red or blue, and furthermore that the journalists have absolutely no autonomy.” Why wouldn’t consumers of the news think that? The siloed Fox News model of outrage journalism has been adapted by the left, as it generates clicks and advertising dollars.

refurb 6y ago

Matt Taibbi has been focused on this lately. His theory is that polarization and writing for one side makes more money. He's done a few scathing articles about the mainstream media's abandonment of traditional media values of impartiality (as much as they can be) and not publishing innuendo and rumor. Some of his work is pretty insightful, especially the time when the gov't leaked to a reporter, who wrote a story, and then the gov't got a search warrant by pointing to the article and saying "see, there is something here!".

branweb 6y ago
Taibbi, Greenwald, and a few others have been providing some eye-opening criticism of contemporary media. Delighted to see his name mentioned here.

lopmotr 6y ago

> the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side. That's superficially true of the left everywhere and probably why it appeals so easily to young people. It's main purpose is to stand up for the poor which makes it appear humanitarian and ethical. But it only feels good on the surface because the left is generally also opposed to market freedom and property rights that benefit everybody, including the poor, in the long term. The right wing's humanitarianism comes as a long term consequence of wealth creation rather than something they want directly.

piva00 6y ago
> left is generally also opposed to market freedom and property rights How much is this patently true and how much of the left in the US is really against market freedom? What are you encompassing with "the left" here? Social democracies here in Europe are nowhere close to opposing market freedom and property rights. The opposition is mostly to complete unregulated markets, nothing much further than this at the moment. Even here in Sweden, which the media and people in the US like to paint as "socialist", is very far from being socialist... To the point where it's more a market economy with socialist ideas tackled on (welfare, comprehensive healthcare, free education, etc.) to disrupt markets that are inefficient or monopolistic in nature. The left don't even exist in the US, whenever I hear an American repeat what I quoted I laugh a little bit inside, it's a strawman based on thin air and fears for the most part.
- thu2111 6y ago
  Hmm, you might want to rethink that. Just this morning I was reading this: https://www.city-journal.org/california-race-coding-criteria-for-reopening https://www.city-journal.org/california-race-coding-criteria... Public health authorities in California have unveiled a “Blueprint for a Safer Economy” that requires counties to meet new “health equity metrics” in order to emerge from the current Covid-19 lockdowns. It’s a broad experiment in social justice. Under the plan, counties must reduce “disparities in levels of transmission” in “low-income, Black, Latino, [and] Pacific Islander” communities before they can move forward with reopening. In effect, local businesses must remain closed until local bureaucrats are satisfied that ill-defined racial quotas have been met. The American left can't normally push too hard against free markets because they lost that argument conclusively and completely when the USSR collapsed (really, a long time before). But now they see an opening, so suddenly businesses and markets are being held hostage: implement the left's current social agenda or else your businesses will be kept closed indefinitely for "health reasons". These are not the actions of people who see value in private enterprise.

rayiner 6y ago

> Inability to have rational argument and not get immediately heated in the face of an opposite opinion is a major flaw of proponents of both the right and left....the one thing that vindicates the left in America is that its at least the arguably more humanitarian and ethical side. People on the left think this because they don’t understand the social value of the things the right cares about. They look around at a world where people seem ragged and unhappy, and think we got here because we don’t have enough of this or that government benefit. They assign zero weight to all of the other things that make for a humane life.