14 ms·

I really, really hate the expectancy of software developers to have side projects at home. Do we ask lawyers what free cases they take over the weekend? Docto

• ryandrake 6y ago
  Reminds me of this one, currently making the rounds: https://youtu.be/vQJ8IjklA4U https://youtu.be/vQJ8IjklA4U
• Igelau 6y ago
  It's kind of sickening. To the point where I seriously distrust people who make programming their only hobby. Its all the nauseating superficiality of true-believer cultists and MML participants, but without the organization.
  • notsuoh 6y ago
    I interviewed someone earlier this year. Some line of questioning on engineering topics and someone led to the person saying something like, “but I don’t really know, it’s not like programming is my hobby and I do it on weekends, it’s my job.” That was so refreshing to hear and was one of the reasons I fought for them at decision time and they’ve been a fantastic employee ever since.
  • cgrealy 6y ago
    Eh, there's nothing wrong with having programming be your only hobby, if that's what you enjoy. The problem is when there is an expectation that as a developer you're somehow inferior if you don't code in your free time.
    • dragonwriter 6y ago
      > The problem is when there is an expectation that as a developer you're somehow inferior if you don't code in your free time. Insofar as diversity of experience matter, coding less and on a narrower array of projects does make you inferior. So, yeah, I’d expect developers who don’t code outside of work, all other things being equal, to be inferior to those who do. I’m curious what, other than simple self-interest of those who don't code outside of work, would lead one to argue that that isn't the case.
      • deleted 6y ago
        [deleted]
      • FpUser 6y ago
        I design products for living so I do a lot of thinking. I plan things in my head. I could be swimming for an hour in the lake and thinking about how to solve this or that situation. Overall thinking takes more of my time then the actual coding which I normally do very fast. Distracting one's mind from the immediate task can also be beneficial for the end result. All this does not make me inferior. Rather the other way around. Luckily I've been my own boss for the last 20 years so I do not have to explain how I do things. I am only responsible for end results /time frame and overall cost. Granted there are situations when loads of code needs to be written that does not require much thinking. For this I usually hire subcontractors. Sometimes do it myself but it does not come very often.
      • cgriswald 6y ago
        Diversity of experience seems orthogonal to whether one codes outside of work. If I spend all day coding X widgets and then go home on the weekend and code more X widgets, I’m not gaining any diversity of experience. (I might be gaining depth of knowledge, which is oddly not valued in the way you’ve framed the issue.) Additionally, doing things other than coding also provides diversity of experience which may be relevant and/or offer a wider perspective. So, I don’t think you’ve really made your case here.
        • dragonwriter 6y ago
  • saagarjha 6y ago
    I think you’re meeting the wrong people.
• xkcd-sucks 6y ago
  Teachers,at least in my part of the USA, do tons of work off the clock and it's not even a side project, just work. Next, having the right non-coding hobbies to portray yourself as an upwardly mobile urban creative: Climbing is in, hunting is out, that sort of thing
  • andy_ppp 6y ago
    So do programmers, especially younger inexperienced devs who feel pressure to perform beyond their current skill level.
• BenoitEssiambre 6y ago
  Doctors I know frequently work weekends and nights between long days of more work.
• swiley 6y ago
  Lawyers are expected to do a certain amount of free work.
  • compiler-guy 6y ago
    Maybe in some places, but this is not universal across the US. Source: My entire social circle are lawyers. Most do almost no pro bono work. And the continuing education requirements are basically a joke.
• ljhsiung 6y ago
  When I ask the question, I do it out of genuine curiosity. I like my potential coworkers (since that's kinda half the point of interviews-- see if he/she is a feasible coworker) to be easy to talk with. I've had interviews where we talked about Tiger King. Though I do agree, this is the minority. I feel that, especially in the cybersecurity world, it's an expectation that you should have several CVEs or public bug bounty writeups under your belt, things which oftentimes take tens of hours of time outside of work.
  • paulryanrogers 6y ago
    It seems the creep is real. Yet with an aging body, a family to love, and a house to fix even getting a few uninterrupted hours with any consistency is ... a big ask.
    • Aeolun 6y ago
      I did all these things right up until I married and had a son. Now when I have a few hours to myself I just play a game, or get some extra hours of sleep. Ain’t nobody got no time to do that any more.
  • teddyh 6y ago
    > When I ask the question, I do it out of genuine curiosity. I like my potential coworkers (since that's kinda half the point of interviews-- see if he/she is a feasible coworker) to be easy to talk with. Don’t. You seem to be utterly blind to the enormous power imbalance in an interview setting. If you were to ask people what their sexual preferences were, or what their political opinions were, people would feel compelled to answer. Don’t behave as if you don’t have any power and are just talking informally; you’re not. You have a huge amount of power in that relationship, and if you will be their boss after they are hired, this will continue to be true. Wield this power responsibly, don’t pretend you don’t have it.
• esperent 6y ago
  Doctors are a terrible comparison - the ones I know work insane hours and are often in the hospital 60+ hours a week.
  • shiftpgdn 6y ago
    Lots of software developers are expected to do 60 hour weeks too. There are also thousands of lifestyle doctors that just work a few days a week.
    • jonathankoren 6y ago
      "lifestyle doctors" ? Only on HN is having interests outside of work considered a slur.
      • cyberdrunk 6y ago
        For me at least a "lifestyle doctor" is a term without negative connotations.
  • learc83 6y ago
    That completely depends on the specialty. I know plenty who work around 30 hours a week.
    • esperent 6y ago
      Of course, and so do plenty of programmers.
• rellekio 6y ago
  I chalk up this feeling to the God is dead mentality. Except here its all interesting ideas are done. It's more of a question of work and why we do so. Most are left burn out at the end of their week. After all it's a job, because someone has to pay you to do it. Programming is just the process of abstraction and automation of work. At what point does it end?
• gfxgirl 6y ago
  I really hate when people complain about too much "screen time at work". You also had too much breathing time at work. Maybe you should stop breathing when outside of work. You read things on that screen so I guess you "got enough reading at work". If your allowed headphones at work and listen to music while working then I bet you "got enough music at work" and don't listen to music outside of work. I'm totally for your right to do whatever you want outside of work. Me, I continue to use "the screen" because I like gaming, I like movies, I like channels on youtube, I like video chat with friends and family. The computer it just a tool. The fact that I happen to use one at work is no different than I might use books, a chair, a table, and other tools at work. That doesn't give me some ridiculous notion that I got too much book time, chair time, table time, pen time, etc...
  • paulryanrogers 6y ago
    Does the phrase "screen time" require such a harsh response? I get it. Computering has been my hobby and job for many years. I'd do it more if my body would cooperate. But it's cool if some folks just want to leave it behind when they clock out.
    • saagarjha 6y ago
      It is. Forcing people to work on side projects is just as stupid as claiming that people who work on side projects are somehow freaks.
  • playingchanges 6y ago
    I think depending on your sensitivity to these things there’s probably a spectrum of fatigue caused by a day of screen gazing and headphone music. I know I personally regularly burn out on both screen and music during work hours and prefer more athletic hobbies in my free time because of that.
  • kulig 6y ago
    Hahhaha wtf is this post? Are you seriously comparing staring at a screen to BREATHING??
  • 6y ago
• Axsuul 6y ago
  One notable difference is that software developers are in the category of "builders" while the other professions you mentioned aren't generally accepted as such.
  • thinkingemote 6y ago
    Software developers can also fit in with the creative architect category and (esp here) entrepreneurial business starter.
• deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
• hombre_fatal 6y ago
  I'd liken us more to craftspeople like a carpenter. While I certainly don't think software developers should be expected to make software their freetime hobby with a menagerie of weekend sideprojects, this forum acts like it's an unfair demand on a carpenter that you see something they've built before you hire them. I also can't say I expect much from a software developer who hasn't at least had interest in personal projects during some interval of their life. Like a carpenter who has never made something unless they were getting paid for it.
• segmondy 6y ago
  Here's how I look at it, if you're a musician, you probably play at home sometime. If you're a mathematician, you probably solve some maths at home. If you're a writer, you probably write at home. Most people that can practice their craft do so at home. I don't expect a hunter or a fisherman to hunt or fish at home. But a chef? A chef might have an idea for a meal and experiment at home. So a software developer that doesn't practice their craft at home is very suspect. I don't expect a side project, just practice, but very often, we have an idea that does turn into a side project. I don't expect this side project to make money, to have a website, to have a beautiful code, to be in github, but if you can't tell me anything that you have worked on just for the hell of it in the past year, I will be very and highly suspicious of how good you are.
  • ignoramous 6y ago
    A lot of really really good engineers I knew at AWS had no side projects. They were absolute masters at their job. May be AWS is a small sample size, and sure engineers with side-projects were better than average, but to say others were not as good...nope, doesn't go with my observation at all.
    • sumanthvepa 6y ago
      This is partly due to the nature of your employment contract at AMZN. They can lay claim to all the IP you create while employed. You will need to get explicit permission to work on an open source project. This is fairly common at large companies.
  • ipiz0618 6y ago
    This is true. To think of it, some lawyers probably work for free in the weekends for the poor; some doctors probably read about medical breakthroughs (and inevitable solve family cases) at home, and teachers too. I don't see anything wrong with either approach to coding, be it treating it strictly as work or as a hobby. But if someone expects good code, best practices, 100% test coverage, etc. in a side project - that's going too far.
    • 6y ago
• mxcrossb 6y ago
  Is it just me or have attitudes shifted dramatically on this? When I was a college student, I remember professor’s scaring us with stories of intellectual property disputes between companies and their workers over side project. Not to mention liability issues. But now every company wants to hear about your side project during interviews?
• dragonwriter 6y ago
  > Do we ask lawyers what free cases they take over the weekend? Lawyers have both continuing education and pro bono work expectations, both of which are frequently also bar membership requirements (with some common exemptions, IIRC, for the pro bono requirement in jurisdictions where it generally applies.) Of course, because they are binding requirements and because lawyers as a norm (and, when not working as regular employees of their direct client, usually a legal requirement) work for other lawyers, this is usually accommodated within working arrangements. But software developers don't have industrial guilds or self-regulation, so they don't have the same kind of power to get accommodation for the need for doing things outside of their current narrow job duties accommodated within most working arrangements. But that doesn't lessen the need for it. > Doctors about the diagnoses they make for fun on Saturdays? Doctors are much like lawyers, including both the binding nature of continuing professional education requirements and, and least broadly, the reasons why it gets accommodated in their working arrangements. > Teachers about their open source lesson plans? No, but, teachers also have mandatory continuing education requirements as licensing conditions outside of what they are immediately teaching. And they tend to have strong unions and legal requirements to point to to get these accommodated in their working arrangements. Software developers have, as a whole, implicitly opted for immediate pay over other advantageous working conditions, including accommodations for continuing education, but it is no less relevant to their ability to develop and perform. Possibly moreso than the other fields; tooling and practices in software development evolving more rapidly than many other intellectual professions.
  • strken 6y ago
    Teachers often work nights and weekends. They'll be doing anything from helping with extracurriculars, to looking after kids on excursions, to marking and writing reports, to for-profit tutoring, to planning lessons. A science teacher will stay up to date with what's happening in their speciality, and might have semi-related hobbies like birdwatching, or archaeology. It's a little harder to pin down than side projects, but the activity is still there.
• andrewstuart 6y ago
  I've heard this analogy many times and it doesn't hold - it's absolutely true that lots of professions - including some of those mentioned - need to work outside hours to be at the top of their field. My brother is a surgeon. And before that, a doctor. And yes he worked all the hours in the day and still does and always has. He has never stopped studying - he has constantly studied his whole school and working life. Being really good at something takes hard work. And also it makes total sense that employers seek out those people for whom it's more than just a job - because those people tend to have a higher level of expertise. You might not like that but the logic is reasonable.
• amw-zero 6y ago
  Lawyers and doctors are such a hysterical example here because they work a notorious amount. Especially when coming out of school.
• austincheney 6y ago
  Many lawyers and doctors do work on the weekends and they have continuing education requirements. Your comment suggests you have no idea what lawyers and doctors do.
  • lvturner 6y ago
    You missed the point - it's not about the work - many developers work weekends and continuously educate themselves. I do plenty of coding activities in my spare time, my library is filled with technical books, some work related, others that I bought out of interest in a given technology - but I don't think there should be an expectation to have a published game, a large website making a few hundreds of bucks a week or a massively successful open sourced project.
  • cgrealy 6y ago
    Yep and lawyers and doctors are two professions with notoriously awful work/life balance. I have no desire to see that attitude become any further entrenched in software development.
• blueridge 6y ago
  This is how I feel about writing. I write for work all day, every day: strategy documents, internal and public help articles, hundreds of long-form emails to customers, not to mention the critical commentary that goes in to design and spec reviews. I love to write, and there's a part of me that wishes I could write more for myself. But by the end of the week, I've got no energy for words, and the last thing I want to do is SIT and write.
• userbinator 6y ago
  My side projects include servicing the car, restoring old appliances, general other repair work around the house... and also working on software that's often related to that stuff.
• mobjack 6y ago
  I didn't get the memo that you had to have programming specific hobbies for interviews. I usually just say something to make me seem well rounded if asked about my hobbies.
• mitchdoogle 6y ago
  I've never seen it as an expectation that employers place on employees, but rather something that software developers place on themselves. The nature of the profession is that one person, by themselves, can create a great piece of software with enough time and effort. Or maybe people just want to get around to putting something into practice that they did a tutorial on a while ago. Or maybe they want to learn a new skill altogether. All these possibilities lay in front of the software developer, just a few clicks away, and it can make you feel like you have to do something.
  • ck425 6y ago
    The problem, as this thread shows, is that often software engineers start putting the expectation onto each other, which causes issues.
• Agentlien 6y ago
  I fully endorse this sentiment, but I've recently had an opposite experience. At my previous job the anti-competitive clause was strong enough to include anything which uses the same skillset as your day job, even if it's a non-commercial side project. I originally thought it was fine, since I hadn't managed to find time and motivation to work on my dream project, anyway over the previous four years. Five years in, however, I had an epiphany which meant I just couldn't ignore the urge to work on it and finally see it through. I ended up changing jobs largely to be allowed to work on it. It's been difficult, finding time and motivation, especially since I will always prioritize spending time with my kids above any other activity. But I've managed to find time a bit, mainly in the evenings if I happen to have energy over.
• sumanthvepa 6y ago
  Re. Doctors. I know my dentist actively does clinical research. His day job just involves seeing patients, doing root canals (in my case), but weekends are about research, he's published a bunch papers. His eyes light up every time I'm in the chair, and we have an enjoyable discussion about NumPy, R and the statistical techniques he's using, and the medical papers he's been reading (Well.. naturally with me unable to speak in the dentist's chair, he gets to do most of the talking.) I'm a lay person, so I cannot judge his skill level, but it's obvious he loves his job. His hospital obviously supports his work.
• megablast 6y ago
  I can’t believe that someone can create software, and doesn’t have an interest in some sort of software project. Like an android developer or iOS dev who has never written an app. Yes, it would be like a chef who never cooks. A nurse who doesn’t apply her own bandages.
  • TacoSteemers 6y ago
    Applying bandages is not as much work as developing most (hobby) software is, especially if the software comes with some expectation of support.
    • TacoSteemers 6y ago
      Any comparison or metaphor will probably be flawed. If a person does not work on side projects I won't hold it against them, because I know good developers who don't.
• tasuki 6y ago
  > I really, really hate the expectancy of software developers to have side projects at home. I have some side projects, and employers have rarely asked about them or cared at all. > Worst yet its often phrased in the interview as "do you have any hobbies?" I think you're projecting here. Perhaps they just want to know about your hobbies?
  • yoz-y 6y ago
    When I did interviews and asked about side projects I’m looking for another topic related to craft to talk about. If you don’t have one fair enough, but in that case I would expect that for school stuff you can elaborate more than “we did a thing in Java”. For questions about hobbies it’s the same. You need something to talk about to gauge fit into the team.
• grep_name 6y ago
  > I really, really hate the expectancy of software developers to have side projects at home. I feel exactly the same way, but there is an incredible amount of hostility to this website in this thread imo. I almost made a similar blog post to start my blog off this year (which I still haven't gotten around to doing), and I did a similar thing with a web domain I bought as a joke while drinking. After years of development, it was actually exhilarating to work on something that I have no deadlines for and can use as an outlet to explore technologies I never got to use but always wondered about. I get the same energy from this website. I hate the expectancy of software devs to work on their own projects as a resume builder, but this site seems to be _specifically not about that_. On the contrary, it seems to me like the author is re-learning how approach something that they may have forgotten that they even like to do in a casual way, which I think is nice. In fact, when working on side projects I care about these days, I get annoyed by my friends constantly trying to figure out how I'm going to spin it as work experience.