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What is CICO? Do you mean something like calories in calories out? And doesn’t that disregard the fact that sugar calories are very different from non sugar o
by andrei_says_ 6y ago
What is CICO?
Do you mean something like calories in calories out?
And doesn’t that disregard the fact that sugar calories are very different from non sugar ones in terms of metabolism?
- amelius 6y agoI think the whole calories in / calories out phrasing is very disrespectful towards people with genetic obesity, (EDIT:) because these people can eat the same, sport the same, etc. as other people and still gain more weight. Telling them "just follow this equation like I do" hides the real problem behind a variable and is disrespectful because things aren't so simple for these people.
- matz1 6y agoHow is it disrespectful?
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- johnkpaul 6y agoImagine the time before the formalization of dyslexia within medicine. It would have been very disrespectful and cruel to tell people who found learning very challenging something like “just try harder! It’s basic physics, the more you study, the more you learn!”
- matz1 6y agoCalorie in calorie out principle doesn't imply that its not challenging
- johnkpaul 6y agoWhy not? It just means you eat a specific amount of calories and you’ll lose weight no?
- matz1 6y agoThat its true but that statement doesn't say anything about the difficulty of it.
- johnkpaul 6y agoI agree. Neither you nor I made a specific comment in difficulty. Your parent comment stated it was disrespectful. I agreed and tried to use an analogy that would be considered both disrespectful and cruel by most people. In addition, I have successfully eaten the “correct” amount of calories for years and years and still gained weight. I admit, andcdata, but I am not the only person with this story nor am I the only one with this odd medical outcome.
- matz1 6y agoAnd i pointed out the issue with saying it disrespectful. >In addition, I have successfully eaten the “correct” amount of calories for years and years and still gained weight So that means you are not eating the correct amount of calorie. But i guess you knew that since you use the word correct in quote.
- johnkpaul 6y agoSorry, I don’t understand. What is the issue? I put correct in quotes because it was ineffective. I did not lose weight eating the amount of calories that the doctors calculated. Is that surprising?
- magicalhippo 6y agoIf you eat exactly 100g of refined sugar then your body can extract at most 400 calories. If you then burn 500, that 100 calorie difference must come from your body. That's all it means. Finding how many calories your body needs right now to maintain weight is another issue entirely, and one which involves estimation and uncertainties. If you find you're not losing weight while hitting your target value, well then it's simple[1]: your target value is wrong and needs to be lowered. [1]: Assuming your doc verified you're not gaining weight due to water retention or similar.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y agoIndeed. I know first hand how much more difficult it is than everyone who hasn't had to do it thinks it is.
- curiousllama 6y agoIt’s the phrasing, not the idea per se. Like, yes, weight loss is energy consumed - energy burned, but it’s rather obvious, rather unhelpful, and simplifies things in a way that triggers shame, not determination for people who have to overcome more barriers. It’s like you’re in the middle of a marathon and someone running a 5k goes “have you considered running faster?”
- matz1 6y agoSure it can be interpreted multiple ways and like with any idea, there will always be some people that offended. Some people may find it obvious but some other people can find it helpful.
- johnkpaul 6y agoHahaha yes this is great. Similar with “Oh, you’re poor? Have you tried making more money?”
- vsareto 6y agoYep, fat shaming doesn't work because the rich bully the poor all the time and that definitely hasn't changed anything
- andrei_says_ 6y agoI love Rutger Bregman’s Ted talk on how being poor impacts decision making. https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lack_of_character_it_s_a_lack_of_cash?language=en https://www.ted.com/talks/rutger_bregman_poverty_isn_t_a_lac...
- Viliam1234 6y ago"Money in, money out."
- matz1 6y agoYou would think it obvious but suprisingly a lot of people didn't know that.
- johnkpaul 6y agoI am one of those people. I appreciate you saying this. I have spent decades of my life trying to lose weight including following doctors orders word for word for 10 years. It only ended with gained weight despite their beliefs in “physics”. I am now 3.5 years into carbohydrate recovery and I’ve lost 200 pounds eating way way way more than my “TDEE”. I’m not saying this for any other reason than to express my gratitude.
- joflicu 6y agoCan you share what you did to lose this much weight?
- johnkpaul 6y agoAlmost pure carnivore, extremely strict keto. I try to eat as close to zero carbohydrates as possible and a stick of butter per day.
- koolba 6y agoHow do you eat a stick of butter daily? I lean toward either butter or tallow as a cooking oil, but outside of directly eating a stick I can’t imagine using an entire one to cook a meal per person.
- andrei_says_ 6y agoGhee is great, too ;)
- coldtea 6y ago>towards people with genetic obesity All 10 of them? That's fine then, because for the rest of 99% of the obese population it's fine...
- lol636363 6y agoNo, all calories are same. This is in the domain of physics or chemistry. But of course if you get all your calories from simple carbs, you will be deficient in other important nutrients like vitamins. However, deficiency of certain nutrients may cause body to slow down or increase metabolic rate.
- corty 6y agoNo, all calories are not the same. The basic process for measurements is "burn it, measure the energy output". " Burning" as in "gas flame, high heat, oxygenated atmosphere". This is something your body doesn't do, even if you supposedly "burn" calories. Your body uses different reactions that are often less efficient, meaning the energy output will be different from the calories measured. Nowadays some of those errors are corrected for, but not all of them. And depending on your personal metabolism, from genetics, daily changes and nutrient status, your body will be less or more efficient with some foods.
- AnIdiotOnTheNet 6y agoIrrelevant. If your body extracts only 50Cal from a 100Cal cube of sugar, but you counted that 100Cal value against your daily limit, then you're still achieving your goal. The problem is often that people set too high a limit and overestimate how much they burn during exercise.
- Dahoon 6y agoNo they are not. 1 calorie from fat makes you more full than 1 from sugar. Also sugar (or rather glucose) makes you hungry because of the blood-sugar spike and crash. So while one type of food makes you full, another with the exact same amount of calories can make you hungry and hence eat more. Also the body burn different things in different ways (glucose vs. fat). That is why some (like me) will feel awful if I take a long walk while in a period of eating what is considered normal today but can stop eating for a few days with no problems at all (and add a few long walks on-top of that no problem) if I eat low carb high fat. You can say it is the same in basic physics or chemistry if you want but if calories from X does not give the same amount of energy for the body as Y, then X != Y.
- fredophile 6y agoCalories in calories out works. The thing you, and many critics of CICO, are missing is that the food you eat affects both sides of the equation.
- Viliam1234 6y ago> Calories in calories out works. What do you mean by "works" here? Technically it is true... the same way as "atoms in, atoms out" is technically true. So why do people prefer saying "calories in, calories out" instead of "atoms in, atoms out"? That's because "calories in, calories out" implies that there is an easy solution to being fat... you simply need to "out" more calories, while you "in" less calories, duh! Which conveniently ignores all possible problems with trying to "in" less calories and "out" more of them. For example, that your metabolism can make you feel extremely tired, even pass out, if you don't "in" enough calories. Similarly, to "out" more calories you sometimes need more than sheer willpower; your muscles have to cooperate, and sometimes they will only if you "in" enough calories.
- fredophile 6y agoI mean anyone trying to tell you that it doesn't work and they have some magic shortcut for how to lose weight is lying to you. Their method for weight loss might work for you but not because CICO is wrong. I would argue that CICO does not imply easy. The rendering equation really just says light in == light out but that doesn't mean writing a renderer is easy. People who say CICO doesn't work are usually trying to sell you an "easy" way to lose weight. Take this proprietary fat burning pill. Don't eat carbs. Don't eat fats. Eat 6 small meals a day. Eat 1 meal a day. Don't feed your mogwai after midnight. If one of these strategies works for you, great. You've found a way to get calories in less than calories out.
- Viliam1234 6y agoOne of those easy methods might actually work by affecting the "calories in". I mean, not everything you eat is processed by your body; some potential calories may be simply excreted. I can imagine how a pill, composition of food, or even the timing of it, might influence the gut flora, which in turn would change how many calories are actually extracted from the food. This is the danger I see in simple slogans, that they make people automatically dismiss potential solutions. Of course, if a successful solution is found, it will be obvious in hindsight that CICO didn't actually contradict it. But no one who is happy with CICO as an answer is looking in that direction now. EDIT: Same objection applies to "calories out". How do you spend calories? Typically by exercise or sport. But that way you can only spend calories that are currently stored in your muscles. What about calories that are currently stored in your fat cells -- how do you move them from there, into your muscles? Again, I imagine that a pill, or a change of diet, could make this more easy or difficult.