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> Should Oracle win this case, ... Free Software ... Hmmm... First Free Software project that will dye after this is WINE that implements Windows API ( https:/

> Should Oracle win this case, ... Free Software ... Hmmm... First Free Software project that will dye after this is WINE that implements Windows API ( https://www.winehq.org/ https://www.winehq.org/ )

aninteger 6y ago
Maybe just in the USA. But also Microsoft is on Google's side here. Also doesn't Microsoft's WSL also have this problem as a "reverse WINE" ?
- DoctorOW 6y ago
  Except Linux is FOSS so Microsoft has a license to do it.
  - dtech 6y ago
    Only under Linux's GPL license, WSL is most definitively not under GPL
    - lalos 6y ago
      Probably related to this https://spdx.org/licenses/Linux-syscall-note.html https://spdx.org/licenses/Linux-syscall-note.html
    - matkoniecz 6y ago
      Is it possible to make WSL a GPL software without making entire Windows a GPL software?
      - dtech 6y ago
        Yes, GPL defines some boundaries but as long WSL acts as stand-alone software and Windows doesn't link against it that's allowed.
alfalfasprout 6y ago
Not at all. Please read page 14 of the amicus curiae brief in support of Google by Microsoft (https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/18/18-956/128381/20200113143602407_Microsoft%20-%20Google%20v%20Oracle%20Amicus%20Brief_Efile.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/18/18-956/128381/2020...). Here is the relevant paragraph: """ In another example from the 1990s, an open-source developer created a program called WINE, which al- lowed developers to enable Windows applications to run on computers that used the Linux open-source system, without explicit authorization from Microsoft. Gratz & Lemley, supra, at 611. To create WINE, the developer “use[d] the same hierarchy of function names” of various Windows APIs. Id. at 612. Years later, Microsoft created “the inverse of WINE,” reimplementing the structure of certain Linux APIs to create the Windows Subsystem for Linux, a program that allowed Linux programs to run on Windows. Ibid. The Windows-Linux experience shows that reuse of functional code is a “two- way street” that benefits both the original creator and the follow-on developer—and ultimately the consumer. """ Not to mention there's no monetary chest at the end of that fight (and the creation of WSL wouldn't bode well for them if they were to make a case at all).
- Analemma_ 6y ago
  Companies don't bother with principled consistency, and so I wouldn't expect any from Microsoft if this goes Oracle's way. It's totally possible that Microsoft thinks APIs being non-copyrightable is good for them on net, but that if SCOTUS decides otherwise that they might as well go crush WINE anyway since they now have the means.
  - belorn 6y ago
    It will depend a lot on how wide a decision SCOTUS makes, and that fair use is interpreted in a very different way. Wine is not a windows replacement nor can Microsoft really show any negative impact on the market for windows license sales because of Wine. Wine (recursive backronym for Wine Is Not an Emulator) is "simply" a compatibility layer that convert between Windows ABI calls into native linux system calls. Wine is not an operative system replacement for windows, and wine user base compared to windows is comparable so tiny that any argument based on market impact should be taken with a lot of skepticism. In addition I would be a bit surprised if wine has copied 11000 lines of header files from windows, arranged identically to Microsoft Windows source code.
pier25 6y ago
And what about Xamarin?
- dylan-m 6y ago
  Microsoft owns Xamarin (as of February 2016), so that would be weird :b This would be somewhat concerning if we were talking about Ballmer-era Microsoft where they were going around extorting companies that used Linux. Although nothing was really stopping them then. They had a good system of picking companies one by one, being threatening and making them sign "licensing deals" without ever needing to go to court or publicly say which patents were being infringed. (Probably all FAT stuff. Google eventually had the good sense to stop using FAT on Android, but it was slow going because if you haven't noticed Google manoeuvres about as well as a freight train). With the amount they've changed under Nadella, I'm not sure present day Microsoft even could do that. But for present-day examples we're going to need to search elsewhere.
  - pier25 6y ago
    What I meant is that Xamarin reimplements the APIs from iOS and Android.

aninteger 6y ago

Maybe just in the USA. But also Microsoft is on Google's side here. Also doesn't Microsoft's WSL also have this problem as a "reverse WINE" ?

DoctorOW 6y ago
Except Linux is FOSS so Microsoft has a license to do it.
- dtech 6y ago
  Only under Linux's GPL license, WSL is most definitively not under GPL
  - lalos 6y ago
    Probably related to this https://spdx.org/licenses/Linux-syscall-note.html https://spdx.org/licenses/Linux-syscall-note.html
  - matkoniecz 6y ago
    Is it possible to make WSL a GPL software without making entire Windows a GPL software?
    - dtech 6y ago
      Yes, GPL defines some boundaries but as long WSL acts as stand-alone software and Windows doesn't link against it that's allowed.

alfalfasprout 6y ago

Not at all. Please read page 14 of the amicus curiae brief in support of Google by Microsoft (https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/18/18-956/128381/20200113143602407_Microsoft%20-%20Google%20v%20Oracle%20Amicus%20Brief_Efile.pdf https://www.supremecourt.gov/DocketPDF/18/18-956/128381/2020...). Here is the relevant paragraph: """ In another example from the 1990s, an open-source developer created a program called WINE, which al- lowed developers to enable Windows applications to run on computers that used the Linux open-source system, without explicit authorization from Microsoft. Gratz & Lemley, supra, at 611. To create WINE, the developer “use[d] the same hierarchy of function names” of various Windows APIs. Id. at 612. Years later, Microsoft created “the inverse of WINE,” reimplementing the structure of certain Linux APIs to create the Windows Subsystem for Linux, a program that allowed Linux programs to run on Windows. Ibid. The Windows-Linux experience shows that reuse of functional code is a “two- way street” that benefits both the original creator and the follow-on developer—and ultimately the consumer. """ Not to mention there's no monetary chest at the end of that fight (and the creation of WSL wouldn't bode well for them if they were to make a case at all).

Analemma_ 6y ago
Companies don't bother with principled consistency, and so I wouldn't expect any from Microsoft if this goes Oracle's way. It's totally possible that Microsoft thinks APIs being non-copyrightable is good for them on net, but that if SCOTUS decides otherwise that they might as well go crush WINE anyway since they now have the means.
- belorn 6y ago
  It will depend a lot on how wide a decision SCOTUS makes, and that fair use is interpreted in a very different way. Wine is not a windows replacement nor can Microsoft really show any negative impact on the market for windows license sales because of Wine. Wine (recursive backronym for Wine Is Not an Emulator) is "simply" a compatibility layer that convert between Windows ABI calls into native linux system calls. Wine is not an operative system replacement for windows, and wine user base compared to windows is comparable so tiny that any argument based on market impact should be taken with a lot of skepticism. In addition I would be a bit surprised if wine has copied 11000 lines of header files from windows, arranged identically to Microsoft Windows source code.

pier25 6y ago

And what about Xamarin?

dylan-m 6y ago
Microsoft owns Xamarin (as of February 2016), so that would be weird :b This would be somewhat concerning if we were talking about Ballmer-era Microsoft where they were going around extorting companies that used Linux. Although nothing was really stopping them then. They had a good system of picking companies one by one, being threatening and making them sign "licensing deals" without ever needing to go to court or publicly say which patents were being infringed. (Probably all FAT stuff. Google eventually had the good sense to stop using FAT on Android, but it was slow going because if you haven't noticed Google manoeuvres about as well as a freight train). With the amount they've changed under Nadella, I'm not sure present day Microsoft even could do that. But for present-day examples we're going to need to search elsewhere.
- pier25 6y ago
  What I meant is that Xamarin reimplements the APIs from iOS and Android.