5 ms·

This idea of "everything is political" is why the discourse went to shit, now nobody can catch a break from politics, and if you had enough and don't want to ta

by devtul 6y ago

This idea of "everything is political" is why the discourse went to shit, now nobody can catch a break from politics, and if you had enough and don't want to take part then you instantly gets attacked for "supporting the status quo". I prefer to not be lectured on political issues by my orange juice brand. Their mission should be to sell high quality orange juice and make a profit.

blck 6y ago
I think in prior times when we didn't have all the information we have available at hand: sure that's fine. But what if your orange juice brand of choice was actively contributing to the destruction of the environment, lobbying politicians to make them exempt from environmental regulations, and destroying competition in nefarious ways? That's an extreme but if that's information you have and you still support that orange juice brand then you are supporting everything that is public knowledge about that brand.
- defen 6y ago
  If 95% of the people at the company don't care, but you're the person who won't stop bringing up the need to change orange juice vendors, to the point that it's disruptive and annoying to the 95%, maybe they don't want to work with you any more. And maybe it's not the right company for you, either. Why would you want to work with a bunch of people who are indifferent to environmental destruction when there are literally thousands of companies out there who actively embrace your orange juice opinions?
  - lazyasciiart 6y ago
    If 95% of the company doesn't care then you should change orange juice vendors. Making it turn into an ongoing issue would be a very strong sign that people at the company care very strongly about keeping the current vendor. Which means that perhaps you should leave, but you should leave because people are actively opposing your politics and not because that 95% is not political.
    - defen 6y ago
      By "don't care" I mean they don't perceive the current situation as a problem, and they view the cost of switching vendors to be too high. But either way, yes. I think one problem with the concept of "everything is political (including supporting the status quo)" is that it provides no principled mechanism for determining what counts as "too far" (costly) for any given political cause. The nice thing about having a dictator (CEO) in this regard is that it provides a fixed point.
RangerScience 6y ago
Great! Because it's totally non-political to influence international trade policy to give yourself an advantage in buying your oranges and labor in waaaaaait it totally is. IMO Coinbase is "doing it pretty well", not by saying "we'll be apolitical", but by saying, "we're going to be political ONLY about X & Y". My read is that they're not discouraging their employees from being political (unclear to me ATM if they're still doing donation matching regardless), and they're not stopping work-place diversity programs... they're just limiting their lobbying to, you know, their own issues.
danaris 6y ago
Your life may not be political. My life may not be political. But the life of a black trans woman? That's political by its very nature, in today's climate. One party doesn't want her to be allowed to exist, the other does. Believing it's possible to be "apolitical" in any time of polarization is a privilege of those who benefit from the status quo.
- ponker 6y ago
  I think there are definitely people who don’t want her to exist but there are also ones like me, who get called Nazis for it, but whose perspective is largely 1) OK 2) please pay for your own costs related to your choices and 3) I’m not being an asshole to you because you’re a black trans woman, I’m being an asshole to you because I am an asshole and my white male friends say “oh Xxx is such as asshole.” So don’t take it personally
  - webmaven 6y ago
    > whose perspective is largely 1) OK 2) please pay for your own costs related to your choices In your example, the black trans woman has no choice about being black and no choice about their cisgender. Technically, they have a choice about whether they transition, but the alternative is living with the emotional pain of extreme gender dysphoria. Would you deny someone medical care for a physically painful but not life threatening medical condition (say arthritis, or psoriasis), or tell them that treating it is their choice and responsibility? How about mental conditions such as clinical depression, or bipolar disorder? Would you relax the requirements on businesses to provide reasonable accommodation for wheelchair access to parking and restrooms? After all, it is their choice to go out in public. Would you allow discrimination for employment or a mortgage based on these conditions? This isn't really that complicated. Gender dysphoria is a real thing, and while the choice to transition (with or without gender reassignment surgery) is a personal one, and likely never an easy one to make, it should be an option that society supports and simply does not allow discrimination against.
    - ponker 6y ago
      You’ve pretty much done what almost never happens on the Internet: genuinely changed my view.
JoeAltmaier 6y ago
Is it really an attack though? Supporting the status quo (by objecting to discussions about changing it) is the perceived state. Is it an attack, to observe this? I understand folks feel uncomfortable talking about systemic bias. Especially if they don't suffer from it. But that's exactly the issue of status quo vs change - getting folks to notice/discuss it. So there can be change, which requires the comfortable to change too.
- SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
  I think it's intended as an attack, but even if it's not it's just a terribly unfair characterization. If you host a meeting to review a design document, and I start talking about the Syrian Civil War in the middle, are you really supporting the status quo when you ask me to stay on topic?
  - JoeAltmaier 6y ago
    Maybe that's a strawman...but I see your point.
gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
It’s precisely the type of messaging that happened after 9/11 too. “You’re either with us or against us.” Leave it to the woke crowd to take a page out of the Karl Rove handbook.
- asdff 6y ago
  Why stop at Karl Rove? Tribalism is an inherent primal instinct in our species. We are all directly descended from brutal tribes at odds with other tribes over competition for limited resources. It's rooted in nearly all of our thinking, and you have to take active steps in your thought processes to avoid being biased by this inherent biological preference you have for the success of your kin versus the kin of others.
  - gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
    For sure, this is definitely an element.
- remarkEon 6y ago
  Who took it out of Lenin's handbook, ironically. Time is a flat circle and all that.

by devtul 6y ago

blck 6y ago

I think in prior times when we didn't have all the information we have available at hand: sure that's fine. But what if your orange juice brand of choice was actively contributing to the destruction of the environment, lobbying politicians to make them exempt from environmental regulations, and destroying competition in nefarious ways? That's an extreme but if that's information you have and you still support that orange juice brand then you are supporting everything that is public knowledge about that brand.

defen 6y ago
If 95% of the people at the company don't care, but you're the person who won't stop bringing up the need to change orange juice vendors, to the point that it's disruptive and annoying to the 95%, maybe they don't want to work with you any more. And maybe it's not the right company for you, either. Why would you want to work with a bunch of people who are indifferent to environmental destruction when there are literally thousands of companies out there who actively embrace your orange juice opinions?
- lazyasciiart 6y ago
  If 95% of the company doesn't care then you should change orange juice vendors. Making it turn into an ongoing issue would be a very strong sign that people at the company care very strongly about keeping the current vendor. Which means that perhaps you should leave, but you should leave because people are actively opposing your politics and not because that 95% is not political.
  - defen 6y ago
    By "don't care" I mean they don't perceive the current situation as a problem, and they view the cost of switching vendors to be too high. But either way, yes. I think one problem with the concept of "everything is political (including supporting the status quo)" is that it provides no principled mechanism for determining what counts as "too far" (costly) for any given political cause. The nice thing about having a dictator (CEO) in this regard is that it provides a fixed point.

RangerScience 6y ago

Great! Because it's totally non-political to influence international trade policy to give yourself an advantage in buying your oranges and labor in waaaaaait it totally is. IMO Coinbase is "doing it pretty well", not by saying "we'll be apolitical", but by saying, "we're going to be political ONLY about X & Y". My read is that they're not discouraging their employees from being political (unclear to me ATM if they're still doing donation matching regardless), and they're not stopping work-place diversity programs... they're just limiting their lobbying to, you know, their own issues.

danaris 6y ago

Your life may not be political. My life may not be political. But the life of a black trans woman? That's political by its very nature, in today's climate. One party doesn't want her to be allowed to exist, the other does. Believing it's possible to be "apolitical" in any time of polarization is a privilege of those who benefit from the status quo.

ponker 6y ago
I think there are definitely people who don’t want her to exist but there are also ones like me, who get called Nazis for it, but whose perspective is largely 1) OK 2) please pay for your own costs related to your choices and 3) I’m not being an asshole to you because you’re a black trans woman, I’m being an asshole to you because I am an asshole and my white male friends say “oh Xxx is such as asshole.” So don’t take it personally
- webmaven 6y ago
  > whose perspective is largely 1) OK 2) please pay for your own costs related to your choices In your example, the black trans woman has no choice about being black and no choice about their cisgender. Technically, they have a choice about whether they transition, but the alternative is living with the emotional pain of extreme gender dysphoria. Would you deny someone medical care for a physically painful but not life threatening medical condition (say arthritis, or psoriasis), or tell them that treating it is their choice and responsibility? How about mental conditions such as clinical depression, or bipolar disorder? Would you relax the requirements on businesses to provide reasonable accommodation for wheelchair access to parking and restrooms? After all, it is their choice to go out in public. Would you allow discrimination for employment or a mortgage based on these conditions? This isn't really that complicated. Gender dysphoria is a real thing, and while the choice to transition (with or without gender reassignment surgery) is a personal one, and likely never an easy one to make, it should be an option that society supports and simply does not allow discrimination against.
  - ponker 6y ago
    You’ve pretty much done what almost never happens on the Internet: genuinely changed my view.

JoeAltmaier 6y ago

Is it really an attack though? Supporting the status quo (by objecting to discussions about changing it) is the perceived state. Is it an attack, to observe this? I understand folks feel uncomfortable talking about systemic bias. Especially if they don't suffer from it. But that's exactly the issue of status quo vs change - getting folks to notice/discuss it. So there can be change, which requires the comfortable to change too.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
I think it's intended as an attack, but even if it's not it's just a terribly unfair characterization. If you host a meeting to review a design document, and I start talking about the Syrian Civil War in the middle, are you really supporting the status quo when you ask me to stay on topic?
- JoeAltmaier 6y ago
  Maybe that's a strawman...but I see your point.

gnusty_gnurc 6y ago

It’s precisely the type of messaging that happened after 9/11 too. “You’re either with us or against us.” Leave it to the woke crowd to take a page out of the Karl Rove handbook.

asdff 6y ago
Why stop at Karl Rove? Tribalism is an inherent primal instinct in our species. We are all directly descended from brutal tribes at odds with other tribes over competition for limited resources. It's rooted in nearly all of our thinking, and you have to take active steps in your thought processes to avoid being biased by this inherent biological preference you have for the success of your kin versus the kin of others.
- gnusty_gnurc 6y ago
  For sure, this is definitely an element.
remarkEon 6y ago
Who took it out of Lenin's handbook, ironically. Time is a flat circle and all that.