6 ms·

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of com

Sure there are some horror stories about unions, but you are just generalizing. And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. Having an organization that can help a worker that is abused, or giving more bargaining power to workers seems clearly positive for the worker. That could be a bit more irritating for the top management ... But the German example (strong unions, 50% of employee representation on the supervisory boards of large corporations) shows it tend to be, overall, positive for the companies.

username90 6y ago
People could organize a European style union for software engineers right now in USA if they wanted, but they aren't doing it. Instead they are still pushing for US style unions like they did at Kickstarter. The only reason I can think of why they are doing this is that they want the extra power that comes with US style unions instead of the more worker friendly EU style unions.
- faitswulff 6y ago
  What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?
  - 082349872349872 6y ago
    Board seats?
    - username90 6y ago
      That is only in Germany and not typical for EU.
      - skitout 6y ago
        And Austria, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, France, Hungary, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Sweden (but with less seats than Germany) https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Relations/Across-Europe/Board-level-Representation2 https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Rela...
  - username90 6y ago
    US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without properly labeling them. EU unions are bigger and more general but aren't allowed to force workers to join, ie EU is a "right to work" area. This avoids most of the problems with US style unions and also gives workers more political power since EU style unions are bigger and can therefore more easily influence national politics.
    - skitout 6y ago
      In my understanding unions that can "forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit" are exceptions not the rules in 2020 USA (and clearly not what the article was talking about). Perhaps am I ill informed (never been in USA, and my friend living there are not in unions), could you give us some sources saying that what you say is the main form of union in USA today ?
      - username90 6y ago
        Kickstarter is such a union. Many of the union members didn't want it. I'd bet even most of the software engineers didn't want it, but were forced to since they were bundled up with a lot of unrelated professions. > In the end, employees voted 46-to-37 in favor of unionizing > As of February 2020, the union was made up of 85 engineers, directors, analysts, designers, coordinators, and customer support specialists https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layoffs-employees-union-negotiations-severance https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layo...
        skitout 6y ago
        The union "represented about 60 percent of the company’s 140 employees prior to the layoffs". From the article you mentioned. If 40% of the workers are not part of the union, seems that you are free to be part or not of the union. And that the union makes sense to the worker, as more than half of the workforce choose to join.
throwaway0a5e 6y ago
> but you are just generalizing No he's not. Every unionized workplace I have been in from educational institutions to government departments to defense contractors is like this to a pretty large extent. >But the German example Yes, I know that European unions are different and not nearly as asinine as American ones but I have yet to hear anyone say that tech will get European style unions let alone a good argument for why this will happen. The best I've heard so far is we should unionize because Europe's unions don't suck. I've never worked (in tech) in an environment where I feel I am getting screwed hard enough that the unions are the lesser of the evils. I understand game devs may feel differently (and they will likely unionize before the rest of the industry IMO). Basically American unions suck which is why American workers in well compensated industries don't want them.
- bsenftner 6y ago
  American style capitalism has polluted the mental models of anyone raised in the States to disregard European management styles and by extension the successful European work life balance, to the US citizens' significant determent. The work-life balance in Europe is more of a life worth living, while the life styles in the United States require double incomes to participate, are so heavily marketed it rendered everything expensive in either dollars, social credit, political credit or when not "playing the game" complete social isolation. Life in the United States is close to ruined, we have close to no community beyond these online peeps into the darkness.
  - smithcoin 6y ago
    I’m sorry you feel that way.
    - vangelis 6y ago
      Not an argument.
  - dudul 6y ago
    Double income is pretty much a requirement everywhere in Europe. Some things are more expensive in the US, like cars. Some are more expensive in Europe, like food and gas. There are great communities in the US. Dont generalize a country of 360M people on your personal situation.
dexen 6y ago
>And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. European here, let's talk personal experience. The americans have a very unhealthy situation wrt unions, and i'm not surprised people with do-it-yourself and can-do attitudes common in tech are soured up to them. And my impressions are relative to polish culture, where unions are traditionally quite strong. I was responsible for selecting several tech conferences for my boss to visit, both in USA and Europe, Middle East, and Asia. Having read most of the documents proffered, I was shocked to find the amount of red tape that was specific to union arrangements in USA, and USA only. Stands, decorations, electrics, cargo large and small. The rider of one american general contractor was the longest document I had to process across 3 continents. We're talking "young institutions" - tech conferences, organized mostly by, and for, "do it yourself" kind of people. Were the problems insurmountable? No, certainly they were surmountable. Did it have a sour taste and impression of a lot of wasted effort on both sides of the contract? Yes, certainly it did.
- mcv 6y ago
  This is the weird thing. Americans love to complain about how stupid their unions are, and according to some anecdotes, some American unions are indeed pretty stupid. But these are the unions created by Americans. I don't quite understand the underlying cultural issue that leads Americans to create unions they hate. It's got to be something cultural. Or is it something in US law? It seems so easy to fix, but somehow they end up creating something they hate. Why? What causes this, and why is it so hard to fix?
  - skitout 6y ago
    I don't know USA very well, so that is just a feeling. - a lot of what the union do/did have to be understand in the context of important fight between the unionized worker and the companies that want to undercut union influence (and often undercut workers right) - a lot of thing union do / used to do, make sense in the past, but are less relevant now. - Human is quite good to do stupid things, to create some bureaucracy / rules... That applied to companies (Bullshit Job being one manifestation of it), but also to union - We tend to notice more the bad things than the good things... - Humans tends to love power and hate change... that includes human running unions

username90 6y ago

People could organize a European style union for software engineers right now in USA if they wanted, but they aren't doing it. Instead they are still pushing for US style unions like they did at Kickstarter. The only reason I can think of why they are doing this is that they want the extra power that comes with US style unions instead of the more worker friendly EU style unions.

faitswulff 6y ago
What is the primary difference between EU and US style unions?
- 082349872349872 6y ago
  Board seats?
  - username90 6y ago
    That is only in Germany and not typical for EU.
    - skitout 6y ago
      And Austria, Croatia, Denmark, Finland, France, Hungary, Luxembourg, the Netherlands, Norway, Slovakia, Slovenia and Sweden (but with less seats than Germany) https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Relations/Across-Europe/Board-level-Representation2 https://www.worker-participation.eu/National-Industrial-Rela...
- username90 6y ago
  US unions are usually per company and forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit, meaning that anyone performing a specific job function needs to join said union. This leads to the "You can't plug a computer into a socket if you aren't in the electrician union" problem, the reason they say that is they think the company could oust the union by hiring people to do that work without properly labeling them. EU unions are bigger and more general but aren't allowed to force workers to join, ie EU is a "right to work" area. This avoids most of the problems with US style unions and also gives workers more political power since EU style unions are bigger and can therefore more easily influence national politics.
  - skitout 6y ago
    In my understanding unions that can "forces everyone working in a specific area in that company to join or quit" are exceptions not the rules in 2020 USA (and clearly not what the article was talking about). Perhaps am I ill informed (never been in USA, and my friend living there are not in unions), could you give us some sources saying that what you say is the main form of union in USA today ?
    - username90 6y ago
      Kickstarter is such a union. Many of the union members didn't want it. I'd bet even most of the software engineers didn't want it, but were forced to since they were bundled up with a lot of unrelated professions. > In the end, employees voted 46-to-37 in favor of unionizing > As of February 2020, the union was made up of 85 engineers, directors, analysts, designers, coordinators, and customer support specialists https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layoffs-employees-union-negotiations-severance https://www.theverge.com/2020/5/13/21257585/kickstarter-layo...
      - skitout 6y ago
        The union "represented about 60 percent of the company’s 140 employees prior to the layoffs". From the article you mentioned. If 40% of the workers are not part of the union, seems that you are free to be part or not of the union. And that the union makes sense to the worker, as more than half of the workforce choose to join.

throwaway0a5e 6y ago

> but you are just generalizing No he's not. Every unionized workplace I have been in from educational institutions to government departments to defense contractors is like this to a pretty large extent. >But the German example Yes, I know that European unions are different and not nearly as asinine as American ones but I have yet to hear anyone say that tech will get European style unions let alone a good argument for why this will happen. The best I've heard so far is we should unionize because Europe's unions don't suck. I've never worked (in tech) in an environment where I feel I am getting screwed hard enough that the unions are the lesser of the evils. I understand game devs may feel differently (and they will likely unionize before the rest of the industry IMO). Basically American unions suck which is why American workers in well compensated industries don't want them.

bsenftner 6y ago
American style capitalism has polluted the mental models of anyone raised in the States to disregard European management styles and by extension the successful European work life balance, to the US citizens' significant determent. The work-life balance in Europe is more of a life worth living, while the life styles in the United States require double incomes to participate, are so heavily marketed it rendered everything expensive in either dollars, social credit, political credit or when not "playing the game" complete social isolation. Life in the United States is close to ruined, we have close to no community beyond these online peeps into the darkness.
- smithcoin 6y ago
  I’m sorry you feel that way.
  - vangelis 6y ago
    Not an argument.
- dudul 6y ago
  Double income is pretty much a requirement everywhere in Europe. Some things are more expensive in the US, like cars. Some are more expensive in Europe, like food and gas. There are great communities in the US. Dont generalize a country of 360M people on your personal situation.

dexen 6y ago

>And you are talking about "old" institutions ; new unions, for "new" kind of companies would not look the same. European here, let's talk personal experience. The americans have a very unhealthy situation wrt unions, and i'm not surprised people with do-it-yourself and can-do attitudes common in tech are soured up to them. And my impressions are relative to polish culture, where unions are traditionally quite strong. I was responsible for selecting several tech conferences for my boss to visit, both in USA and Europe, Middle East, and Asia. Having read most of the documents proffered, I was shocked to find the amount of red tape that was specific to union arrangements in USA, and USA only. Stands, decorations, electrics, cargo large and small. The rider of one american general contractor was the longest document I had to process across 3 continents. We're talking "young institutions" - tech conferences, organized mostly by, and for, "do it yourself" kind of people. Were the problems insurmountable? No, certainly they were surmountable. Did it have a sour taste and impression of a lot of wasted effort on both sides of the contract? Yes, certainly it did.

mcv 6y ago
This is the weird thing. Americans love to complain about how stupid their unions are, and according to some anecdotes, some American unions are indeed pretty stupid. But these are the unions created by Americans. I don't quite understand the underlying cultural issue that leads Americans to create unions they hate. It's got to be something cultural. Or is it something in US law? It seems so easy to fix, but somehow they end up creating something they hate. Why? What causes this, and why is it so hard to fix?
- skitout 6y ago
  I don't know USA very well, so that is just a feeling. - a lot of what the union do/did have to be understand in the context of important fight between the unionized worker and the companies that want to undercut union influence (and often undercut workers right) - a lot of thing union do / used to do, make sense in the past, but are less relevant now. - Human is quite good to do stupid things, to create some bureaucracy / rules... That applied to companies (Bullshit Job being one manifestation of it), but also to union - We tend to notice more the bad things than the good things... - Humans tends to love power and hate change... that includes human running unions