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> a crazy theory that a universe existed before the big bang, and that the heat death of the universe starts a new big bang. I realize this isn't what Penrose

by bryan0 6y ago

> a crazy theory that a universe existed before the big bang, and that the heat death of the universe starts a new big bang. I realize this isn't what Penrose is saying, but is it really that crazy that random fluctuations will create the conditions for a new big bang in a universe at thermal equilibrium?

warmfuzzykitten 6y ago
It's not useful to speculate about things that are unfalsifiable. That's why Penrose wants these things to be observable traces from before the big bang.
- nwienert 6y ago
  It seems not only has he made multiple predictions based on this theory, but he also is actively publishing research showing it may be true. Where do you get unfalsifiable from? There’s literally falsifiable claims being made.
- gridlockd 6y ago
  There are a lot more books sold on speculative fiction than real astronomical insights. Clearly, such speculation serves a purpose and must therefore be considered useful.
- dumpsterdiver 6y ago
  > It's not useful to speculate about things that are unfalsifiable. I disagree. While such speculation obviously won't produce immediately useful data, where would we be today if noone had ever speculated about something which at the time could not be falsified? Case in point: the initial speculation on the existence of germs, which at the time was unfalsifiable. (Edit: adding refs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease From the arcticle: "By the early nineteenth century, smallpox vaccination was commonplace in Europe, though doctors were unaware of how it worked or how to extend the principle to other diseases." So doctors were saving lives even though they had no idea exactly how or why it worked. They could neither prove nor disprove why it seemed to work, it simply did. The fact that it was unfalsifiable had nothing to do with the truth of the matter - it still saved lives.
  - dTal 6y ago
    I think there's a difference between untestable in practice, right now, and unfalsifiable even in theory. The latter case can never hold any practical value.
    - imcoconut 6y ago
      I think the point dumpsterdiver is making is that determining what is falsifiable or not is context/time dependent. As our understanding of reality changes over time so does our definition of what can be falsifiable.
    - garbagetime 6y ago
      What's an example of something that's unfalsifiable in theory?
      - pantulis 6y ago
        The existence of God.
        garbagetime 6y ago
        Falsifiable by the observance that there is no God. If we get a view of the supernatural it might be clear that there is no God.
        dspillett 6y ago
        Will be disproven by the existence of bablefish. Already has been in less backwards parts of the galaxy than ours.
        pantulis 6y ago
        Sorry didn’t understand the bablefish reference, why does that disprove the existence of god? (I could define myself as an atheist anyway so this is really a non issue for me)
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
ianmobbs 6y ago
A couple of theories regarding the ultimate fate of our universe are the Big Crunch (everything comes together) or the Big Freeze (everything drifts apart, forever). I agree that it's not hard to imagine that if a Big Crunch happened it could potentially create another Big Bang. That said, there's still no way to necessarily prove that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#Theories_about_the_end_of_the_universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#...
codetrotter 6y ago
I feel like this is a good time and place to bring up an idea that I sometimes like to entertain. It goes like this: There is some number of dimensions that exist in total, which is a number higher than just the four dimensions that we are readily able to observe. Our universe exists within this higher dimension, alongside other universes. Also, what we perceive as linear time within our universe might not be just a single dimension either. But even if it's not we can still treat it as though it was. The laws that apply within each of these four dimensional universes as we might see them might or might not all be the same laws. I.e. all other universes might have the same laws as does ours, or some might be different, or all might be different. We can't know. But the idea that I like to entertain is that these universes could serve some function within the higher dimensions. For example, a set of many many parallel universes might each function analogously within the higher dimensions as to how cells function in our universe, and that analogously these parallel universes form a greater whole together as some sort of being that is made up of all of these. Or another possibility might be that a universe could be able to develop within itself life that is able to sense the higher dimensions, and to break free of the universe within which it was created and to then continue existing in the higher dimensions beyond the end of the universe that created it. I imagine this not as human with more senses, but something very different. For example, the way it might come into existence in our universe could be through machinery that we create, with mechanical sensors that are able to pick up the other dimension(s), and with increased computational power the machines we create could in turn process all of the information available to it in order to construct something that somehow (yes, very vague sorry) is not limited by the reality of our universe itself. But yeah, there is no scientific basis for said ideas. It's just something that I like to imagine.
- sillysaurusx 6y ago
  It’s quite fun to speculate. If you’re into this sort of thing, you’d like lemmino on YouTube. Pick any one of his deep dives and you’ll end up listening to something pretty close to what you did here: speculation, in a tight straight jacket. Part of the problem with dark energy is that so much of it is unfalsifiable in ways similar to these theories. Of course, the key difference is that we can measure the effect dark matter has on the universe, whereas thus far no more than 4 dimensions have ever been observed. Sure makes drinking fun though. Take a sip and say a hypothesis. Like apples to apples but for physicists.
fsflover 6y ago
It seems to be possible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future > 10^10^10^56: Time for quantum effects to generate a new Big Bang, resulting in a new universe.

by bryan0 6y ago

warmfuzzykitten 6y ago

It's not useful to speculate about things that are unfalsifiable. That's why Penrose wants these things to be observable traces from before the big bang.

nwienert 6y ago
It seems not only has he made multiple predictions based on this theory, but he also is actively publishing research showing it may be true. Where do you get unfalsifiable from? There’s literally falsifiable claims being made.
gridlockd 6y ago
There are a lot more books sold on speculative fiction than real astronomical insights. Clearly, such speculation serves a purpose and must therefore be considered useful.
dumpsterdiver 6y ago
> It's not useful to speculate about things that are unfalsifiable. I disagree. While such speculation obviously won't produce immediately useful data, where would we be today if noone had ever speculated about something which at the time could not be falsified? Case in point: the initial speculation on the existence of germs, which at the time was unfalsifiable. (Edit: adding refs) https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germ_theory_of_disease From the arcticle: "By the early nineteenth century, smallpox vaccination was commonplace in Europe, though doctors were unaware of how it worked or how to extend the principle to other diseases." So doctors were saving lives even though they had no idea exactly how or why it worked. They could neither prove nor disprove why it seemed to work, it simply did. The fact that it was unfalsifiable had nothing to do with the truth of the matter - it still saved lives.
- dTal 6y ago
  I think there's a difference between untestable in practice, right now, and unfalsifiable even in theory. The latter case can never hold any practical value.
  - imcoconut 6y ago
    I think the point dumpsterdiver is making is that determining what is falsifiable or not is context/time dependent. As our understanding of reality changes over time so does our definition of what can be falsifiable.
  - garbagetime 6y ago
    What's an example of something that's unfalsifiable in theory?
    - pantulis 6y ago
      The existence of God.
      - garbagetime 6y ago
        Falsifiable by the observance that there is no God. If we get a view of the supernatural it might be clear that there is no God.
      - dspillett 6y ago
        Will be disproven by the existence of bablefish. Already has been in less backwards parts of the galaxy than ours.
        pantulis 6y ago
        Sorry didn’t understand the bablefish reference, why does that disprove the existence of god? (I could define myself as an atheist anyway so this is really a non issue for me)

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

ianmobbs 6y ago

A couple of theories regarding the ultimate fate of our universe are the Big Crunch (everything comes together) or the Big Freeze (everything drifts apart, forever). I agree that it's not hard to imagine that if a Big Crunch happened it could potentially create another Big Bang. That said, there's still no way to necessarily prove that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#Theories_about_the_end_of_the_universe https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultimate_fate_of_the_universe#...

codetrotter 6y ago

I feel like this is a good time and place to bring up an idea that I sometimes like to entertain. It goes like this: There is some number of dimensions that exist in total, which is a number higher than just the four dimensions that we are readily able to observe. Our universe exists within this higher dimension, alongside other universes. Also, what we perceive as linear time within our universe might not be just a single dimension either. But even if it's not we can still treat it as though it was. The laws that apply within each of these four dimensional universes as we might see them might or might not all be the same laws. I.e. all other universes might have the same laws as does ours, or some might be different, or all might be different. We can't know. But the idea that I like to entertain is that these universes could serve some function within the higher dimensions. For example, a set of many many parallel universes might each function analogously within the higher dimensions as to how cells function in our universe, and that analogously these parallel universes form a greater whole together as some sort of being that is made up of all of these. Or another possibility might be that a universe could be able to develop within itself life that is able to sense the higher dimensions, and to break free of the universe within which it was created and to then continue existing in the higher dimensions beyond the end of the universe that created it. I imagine this not as human with more senses, but something very different. For example, the way it might come into existence in our universe could be through machinery that we create, with mechanical sensors that are able to pick up the other dimension(s), and with increased computational power the machines we create could in turn process all of the information available to it in order to construct something that somehow (yes, very vague sorry) is not limited by the reality of our universe itself. But yeah, there is no scientific basis for said ideas. It's just something that I like to imagine.

sillysaurusx 6y ago
It’s quite fun to speculate. If you’re into this sort of thing, you’d like lemmino on YouTube. Pick any one of his deep dives and you’ll end up listening to something pretty close to what you did here: speculation, in a tight straight jacket. Part of the problem with dark energy is that so much of it is unfalsifiable in ways similar to these theories. Of course, the key difference is that we can measure the effect dark matter has on the universe, whereas thus far no more than 4 dimensions have ever been observed. Sure makes drinking fun though. Take a sip and say a hypothesis. Like apples to apples but for physicists.

fsflover 6y ago

It seems to be possible: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_the_far_future > 10^10^10^56: Time for quantum effects to generate a new Big Bang, resulting in a new universe.