5 ms·

A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them. Instead, we could have

by panic 6y ago

A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them. Instead, we could have things like: 1. abolition of non-compete agreements 2. ownership of code we write when we're not at work 3. standards for privacy and security enforced by working engineers and not by management Maybe your list is different than mine, but if you can think of anything we might want that goes against the profit motive of corporations, a union (or a guild, or whatever you want to call it) is a proven way to get these things. The Writer's Guild of America guarantees the screenwriters of a movie are credited, for example -- imagine all software had a list of the people who made it!

chrisseaton 6y ago
> A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. A union isn't just that, though is it? It's also a beast in its own right, with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings and people taking a paycheck from your union dues. A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members, who may be out to actively harm your interests. And versus its own survival a union is never going to put your interests first. Why would it? > If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them. Right but what if your colleagues what these BS work rules? What if you're junior and they want pay by seniority?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- polygotdomain 6y ago
  This perspective is frustrating, as it paints unions as an entirely negative endeavor. They're not and there are trade offs. Those trade offs may be a net positive or a net negative, but only highlighting the negative doesn't do any good. >with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings... A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members If your going to chastise the process of advocating for your views then complain that somehow they don't get taken into account then I don't know what to tell you. If your concerned that the interests of other members are outweighing yours, then participate. If you don't want to deal with it, don't join the union. >people taking a paycheck from your union dues Oh my gosh, contributing to something that you get value from... what a crazy concept. If you don't get value from the union, then see above; change it or don't join. >Right but what if your colleagues what these BS work rules? Why does the assumption automatically go towards "unions would be TERRIBLE"? Most devs don't like to put up with BS, so why do you think a union made up of devs would somehow institute a ton of BS rules just because it's a union. Again, if you don't want BS union rules, then make sure the union doesn't institute them by actually participating. >What if you're junior and they want pay by seniority? I hate to break it to you, but that's called the real world. At the end of the day, a union is about shifting the balance of power and advocating for the things the union sees as valuable. What are the things you'd change about tech employment if you could? How could a union be more effective at achieving those changes? A union doesn't have to just be focused on pay scales and bureaucracy.
  - chrisseaton 6y ago
    'Just don't join' doesn't work. Unions often bully or ostracise people who refuse to join. Sometimes they're in practice closed-shops, like the Screen Actors' Guild, even though this isn't supposed to be allowed in law. In some cases unions use violence against 'scabs' and other people who resist.
    - polygotdomain 6y ago
      I like how a non-existent tech union is instantly popping up out of nowhere with both a massive bureaucracy, and a squad of enforcers to beat people up for not joining. Please, stop bringing up historical anecdotes as reasons why a tech union wouldn't work. It's funny how you don't bring up things like strong health care and training as anecdotes on the other side. The question of whether or not there will be "union shops" or not is still yet to be seen. Whether or not there would be is a question of the union and the employers (i.e. TBD).
      - username90 6y ago
        If kickstarter is an example then they forced 37 persons to join it, so it is correct to fear unions forcing you to join. "with 46 employees voting in favor of the move and 37 opposing it". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-un...
        polygotdomain 6y ago
        A vote on formation of a union does not mean employees are forced to join it. A union also doesn't mean anything if there isn't an agreement with the employer. A union also doesn't mean anything if it's members are not going to withhold their services if they don't come to an agreement that is deemed acceptable by it's members. Unions are also about leveraging power. While someone can try to start a union with any number of people, how much they can actually negotiate is going to hinge a lot on that number. Is 55% of the workforce enough to have significant leverage? I don't know and it depends on what the union wants. Would the union be able to reach an agreement with the employer that would force the others to join the union? That would seem like quite a stretch to me.
missedthecue 6y ago
"If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them" Are all states right-to-work?

by panic 6y ago

chrisseaton 6y ago

> A union is just an organization which represents the interests of workers. A union isn't just that, though is it? It's also a beast in its own right, with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings and people taking a paycheck from your union dues. A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members, who may be out to actively harm your interests. And versus its own survival a union is never going to put your interests first. Why would it? > If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them. Right but what if your colleagues what these BS work rules? What if you're junior and they want pay by seniority?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
polygotdomain 6y ago
This perspective is frustrating, as it paints unions as an entirely negative endeavor. They're not and there are trade offs. Those trade offs may be a net positive or a net negative, but only highlighting the negative doesn't do any good. >with its own politics and power struggles and debates and meetings... A union doesn't even necessarily act in your interests. It acts in the interests of the majority of members If your going to chastise the process of advocating for your views then complain that somehow they don't get taken into account then I don't know what to tell you. If your concerned that the interests of other members are outweighing yours, then participate. If you don't want to deal with it, don't join the union. >people taking a paycheck from your union dues Oh my gosh, contributing to something that you get value from... what a crazy concept. If you don't get value from the union, then see above; change it or don't join. >Right but what if your colleagues what these BS work rules? Why does the assumption automatically go towards "unions would be TERRIBLE"? Most devs don't like to put up with BS, so why do you think a union made up of devs would somehow institute a ton of BS rules just because it's a union. Again, if you don't want BS union rules, then make sure the union doesn't institute them by actually participating. >What if you're junior and they want pay by seniority? I hate to break it to you, but that's called the real world. At the end of the day, a union is about shifting the balance of power and advocating for the things the union sees as valuable. What are the things you'd change about tech employment if you could? How could a union be more effective at achieving those changes? A union doesn't have to just be focused on pay scales and bureaucracy.
- chrisseaton 6y ago
  'Just don't join' doesn't work. Unions often bully or ostracise people who refuse to join. Sometimes they're in practice closed-shops, like the Screen Actors' Guild, even though this isn't supposed to be allowed in law. In some cases unions use violence against 'scabs' and other people who resist.
  - polygotdomain 6y ago
    I like how a non-existent tech union is instantly popping up out of nowhere with both a massive bureaucracy, and a squad of enforcers to beat people up for not joining. Please, stop bringing up historical anecdotes as reasons why a tech union wouldn't work. It's funny how you don't bring up things like strong health care and training as anecdotes on the other side. The question of whether or not there will be "union shops" or not is still yet to be seen. Whether or not there would be is a question of the union and the employers (i.e. TBD).
    - username90 6y ago
      If kickstarter is an example then they forced 37 persons to join it, so it is correct to fear unions forcing you to join. "with 46 employees voting in favor of the move and 37 opposing it". https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-union.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/02/18/technology/kickstarter-un...
      - polygotdomain 6y ago
        A vote on formation of a union does not mean employees are forced to join it. A union also doesn't mean anything if there isn't an agreement with the employer. A union also doesn't mean anything if it's members are not going to withhold their services if they don't come to an agreement that is deemed acceptable by it's members. Unions are also about leveraging power. While someone can try to start a union with any number of people, how much they can actually negotiate is going to hinge a lot on that number. Is 55% of the workforce enough to have significant leverage? I don't know and it depends on what the union wants. Would the union be able to reach an agreement with the employer that would force the others to join the union? That would seem like quite a stretch to me.

missedthecue 6y ago

"If we don't want BS work rules, we don't have to have them" Are all states right-to-work?