8 ms·

> a different Chromium fork Well, that's a depressing sentence to read. The vultures may be circling, but Firefox isn't dead yet.

by mrec 6y ago

garmaine 6y ago
Firefox has been a dead browser walking for a number of years now. I don’t like this any more than you, but it’s the truth.
- dont__panic 6y ago
  I'm not sure if this is true -- there was a dark time during the period where Google started to advertise Chrome on literally all google websites, but all of the internal refactors and engine improvements over the past 2-3 years have made an enormous impact on my user experience. And as far as I'm concerned, Firefox isn't dead as long as there isn't a viable replacement that: - doesn't update via a sketchy background process (Google Updater, or whatever they've renamed it to this month to avoid scrutiny) - allows me to customize the UI to fit my needs (tree style tabs are an absolute must for me) - allows me to use a full ad blocker like uBlock Origin instead of arbitrarily limiting the ad blocker API to advance the interests of advertisers Of course, Firefox's management is an enormous problem, from the way they've prioritized features to the recent layoffs to the enormously stupid decisions (letting a certificate expire that disabled almost all add-ons, the Mr. Robot tie-in "experiment", pushing pocket, default disabling userChrome.css, forcing auto-updates) they've made in the past 5 years. But the core of Firefox is good. I would love a startup that builds an entire business off of a fork of Firefox that's completely based on privacy, perhaps with some non-invasive monetization like: - a $5-20 one-time fee to use (with weak enforcement, a la Sublime Text's "annoy you every 5 saves" model) - a paid vs. free split where the free version of the browser adblocks ads but replaces them with in-network, verified safe ads - Linux kernel donation-style only model, with no parent corporation Because of all of the Firefox devs floating around who just got laid off, you could even snatch up some guaranteed capable talent already familiar with the code base. And the best part? They're already vetted to not be part of the management-industrial complex that's taken over Firefox these days.
  - shadowgovt 6y ago
    Sub-10% market share is a problem for them. It's enough of a skew that when rendering errors crop up, product managers have to decide how many eng-hours it's worth to chase down the small implementation difference between Chromium and Gecko to snag 1 in 10 potential lost visitors, instead of throwing a UA-sniffing "best viewed in Chrome" banner on the page and calling it a day. Being a rarely-used browser is a negative feedback loop for compatibility, regardless of what standards say (because standards are often too loose to guarantee full interoperability in all corner cases; they rarely give performance constraints and often don't consider all possible combinations of feature use).
    - mrec 6y ago
      Agree on all points. It's not quite as deadly as back in the old browser wars, because HTML5 is much better specified than its predecessors, but it's definitely a major problem.
  - fakedang 6y ago
    > I would love a startup that builds an entire business off of a fork of Firefox that's completely based on privacy, perhaps with some non-invasive monetization like: Don't know if this is 100% accurate, but Tor?
    - Fnoord 6y ago
      > Don't know if this is 100% accurate, but Tor? You probably meant "Tor Browser". Changes from there were backported, and last time I checked plan was to have it entirely backported within Mozilla Firefox.
  - freeopinion 6y ago
    You mean like Brave, only built off Firefox?
    - dont__panic 6y ago
      Pretty much my vision. The largest reason I don't use Brave is because it's built on top of Chromium, and simply jumping on the Chromium train gives Google the ability to dictate the future of the internet. There needs to be a browser engine alternative, or alternatively, maybe we need to spin Chromium out of the Googleplex and let a free and open source group handle future development independent of the Ad overlords.
hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago
I've started to encouter websites that just don't even render in FF.
- edoceo 6y ago
  I'm trying Servo builds. Oof. Most of the web, even my own very thin no BS pages are not loading perfect. But! Servo is improving. Maybe my Rust skills can improve so I could even contribute.
  - amenod 6y ago
    Just to be clear, this is not Firefox though.
    - edoceo 6y ago
      Yep, it's not.
  - CodesInChaos 6y ago
    > Servo is improving I thought it's unmaintained since the recent Mozilla layoffs?
  - jefftk 6y ago
    Isn't that Servo being incomplete, not web developers doing something wrong?
- mrec 6y ago
  Major ones? I use FF pretty much exclusively and haven't hit one yet.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - amenod 6y ago
    Same here. Though the Google properties are sloooooow in Firefox - if this is not abuse of power then I don't know what is.

> a different Chromium fork Well, that's a depressing sentence to read. The vultures may be circling, but Firefox isn't dead yet.

by mrec 6y ago

> a different Chromium fork Well, that's a depressing sentence to read. The vultures may be circling, but Firefox isn't dead yet.

garmaine 6y ago

Firefox has been a dead browser walking for a number of years now. I don’t like this any more than you, but it’s the truth.

dont__panic 6y ago
I'm not sure if this is true -- there was a dark time during the period where Google started to advertise Chrome on literally all google websites, but all of the internal refactors and engine improvements over the past 2-3 years have made an enormous impact on my user experience. And as far as I'm concerned, Firefox isn't dead as long as there isn't a viable replacement that: - doesn't update via a sketchy background process (Google Updater, or whatever they've renamed it to this month to avoid scrutiny) - allows me to customize the UI to fit my needs (tree style tabs are an absolute must for me) - allows me to use a full ad blocker like uBlock Origin instead of arbitrarily limiting the ad blocker API to advance the interests of advertisers Of course, Firefox's management is an enormous problem, from the way they've prioritized features to the recent layoffs to the enormously stupid decisions (letting a certificate expire that disabled almost all add-ons, the Mr. Robot tie-in "experiment", pushing pocket, default disabling userChrome.css, forcing auto-updates) they've made in the past 5 years. But the core of Firefox is good. I would love a startup that builds an entire business off of a fork of Firefox that's completely based on privacy, perhaps with some non-invasive monetization like: - a $5-20 one-time fee to use (with weak enforcement, a la Sublime Text's "annoy you every 5 saves" model) - a paid vs. free split where the free version of the browser adblocks ads but replaces them with in-network, verified safe ads - Linux kernel donation-style only model, with no parent corporation Because of all of the Firefox devs floating around who just got laid off, you could even snatch up some guaranteed capable talent already familiar with the code base. And the best part? They're already vetted to not be part of the management-industrial complex that's taken over Firefox these days.
- shadowgovt 6y ago
  Sub-10% market share is a problem for them. It's enough of a skew that when rendering errors crop up, product managers have to decide how many eng-hours it's worth to chase down the small implementation difference between Chromium and Gecko to snag 1 in 10 potential lost visitors, instead of throwing a UA-sniffing "best viewed in Chrome" banner on the page and calling it a day. Being a rarely-used browser is a negative feedback loop for compatibility, regardless of what standards say (because standards are often too loose to guarantee full interoperability in all corner cases; they rarely give performance constraints and often don't consider all possible combinations of feature use).
  - mrec 6y ago
    Agree on all points. It's not quite as deadly as back in the old browser wars, because HTML5 is much better specified than its predecessors, but it's definitely a major problem.
- fakedang 6y ago
  > I would love a startup that builds an entire business off of a fork of Firefox that's completely based on privacy, perhaps with some non-invasive monetization like: Don't know if this is 100% accurate, but Tor?
  - Fnoord 6y ago
    > Don't know if this is 100% accurate, but Tor? You probably meant "Tor Browser". Changes from there were backported, and last time I checked plan was to have it entirely backported within Mozilla Firefox.
- freeopinion 6y ago
  You mean like Brave, only built off Firefox?
  - dont__panic 6y ago
    Pretty much my vision. The largest reason I don't use Brave is because it's built on top of Chromium, and simply jumping on the Chromium train gives Google the ability to dictate the future of the internet. There needs to be a browser engine alternative, or alternatively, maybe we need to spin Chromium out of the Googleplex and let a free and open source group handle future development independent of the Ad overlords.

hdjdbtbgwjsn 6y ago

I've started to encouter websites that just don't even render in FF.

edoceo 6y ago
I'm trying Servo builds. Oof. Most of the web, even my own very thin no BS pages are not loading perfect. But! Servo is improving. Maybe my Rust skills can improve so I could even contribute.
- amenod 6y ago
  Just to be clear, this is not Firefox though.
  - edoceo 6y ago
    Yep, it's not.
- CodesInChaos 6y ago
  > Servo is improving I thought it's unmaintained since the recent Mozilla layoffs?
- jefftk 6y ago
  Isn't that Servo being incomplete, not web developers doing something wrong?
mrec 6y ago
Major ones? I use FF pretty much exclusively and haven't hit one yet.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- amenod 6y ago
  Same here. Though the Google properties are sloooooow in Firefox - if this is not abuse of power then I don't know what is.