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The higher pay seems like an overall positive change to reduce the prevalence of "body shops" and so that H1-Bs aren't an easy way for companies to lower overal

The higher pay seems like an overall positive change to reduce the prevalence of "body shops" and so that H1-Bs aren't an easy way for companies to lower overall pay rate. I'm not sure that narrowing degree qualifications is a win; high-skill immigration is a significant boon to America's economy, and I think ability to do the work, and American company willingness to pay above-rate salaries (legally mandated now to 95th percentile for the highest-skill work) ought to be enough signal, and having a particular degree is not as useful a measure at that point. I know plenty of people who are incredibly qualified in terms of industry experience who don't have advanced degrees. I've been pretty impressed with Taiwan's Gold Card work visa program, where you either need certain educational achievement qualifications, or need to be a highly-paid employee in specific fields — but not both. And it's not tied to a specific employer, which I think helps negotiation (and thus also helps domestic workers, by raising labor prices). I wish America's immigration program worked more like that — specific quibbles about what exactly the rate should be aside; Taiwan's is certainly too low to use for the US — since I think encouraging high-skill immigration would help much more than it would hurt: high-skill immigrants tend to generate more jobs, and also tend to pay more in taxes than the services they receive, meaning it's a win-win where immigrants can get the jobs they want in the country they want to be in and Americans end up with more jobs available and more government services per (American) tax dollar spent.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
Florin_Andrei 6y ago
What makes the immigration process in the US truly horrific is the extraordinary time it takes to approve or reject a greencard petition. In many cases it takes years - or even over a decade or more. That's insane. People bring their spouses here, they have kids who are born and go to school here, and all along the way their immigration status is uncertain. And meanwhile they are tied to whatever job they're in. It's insane. Make that process faster. Give people a thumbs-up or thumbs-down like 10x faster. Months not years.
- rayiner 6y ago
  It’s insane because it’s a kludge. The US doesn’t really have a general purpose skilled immigration visa. The H1B visa is a temporary worker visa. There is this whole legal fiction where, when you get one, you have to announce non-immigrant intent with a wink, then once you’re here you say “I just now changed my mind and I want to stay here, can I get a green card.” It was never designed to be a payday to permanent residency, because the grand bargain of the law in the 1960s was that it wouldn’t increase immigration. They should just repeal the law and design a real point-based permanent immigration system from scratch.
  - doingmyting 6y ago
    The H1-B visa is a dual intent visa. There is no announ inc immigration intent with a wink. It's literally written into the law that it is ok to do so. I won't argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing but simply saying it's a temporary work visa and leaving it at that is inaccurate at best and disingenuous at worst.
  - what_ever 6y ago
    H1-B is dual intent - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent so there is no winking required. H1-B can last for 6 years (can be extended beyond that too but let's not get into that) and I think 6 years should be enough for one to get the GC. But otherwise I agree with rest of your points.
    - _jgdh 6y ago
      > I think 6 years should be enough I’m guessing you don’t know very many Indians?
      - what_ever 6y ago
        I am one. I was talking more about the intentions behind it.
    - deleted 6y ago
      [deleted]
epicureanideal 6y ago
The pay level still isn’t high enough. Minimum pay of about 170k in San Jose for a software engineer? That’s not a specialist, that’s average for a small startup.
- carlmr 6y ago
  It should be location based. 170k is an expert in many areas of the country. Maybe something like upper 2% of salaries in the county. A fixed number will never be appropriate for all the areas in the US, and a fixed number will always need to be adapted.
  - brabel 6y ago
    According to this[1], with 140k you're in the top 5% Americans, so you're not far off... but regulating immigrant's salaries on a regional basis seems unfeasible, as they're free to move anywhere in the country AFAIK, just like any other US resident. [1] https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/ https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/
    - carlmr 6y ago
      I don't understand why that would make it infeasible. Whichever place they choose, they have to get a job that's actually highly paid for that area.
    - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
      Why is it unfeasible? Companies give cost of living raises - and pay cuts - depending on where someone lives in the US. If companies can figure this stuff out, why can't the government? Don't companies get their cost of living data from government agencies anyway?
      - bluGill 6y ago
        As someone who lives in a different state I object to someone who is otherwise equal in ability to me earning more for the same work (I have personal reasons to not want to move to CA). I understand why companies do it (only those who have a reason they need to stay in CA - why google doesn't move doesn't make sense), but I will object to my government encouraging the situation even more. My representative needs to be sensitive to that.
StreamBright 6y ago
>> I'm not sure that narrowing degree qualifications is a win Yep this is a problem, some (many) H1B people do not have a relevant degree in CS, not sure how this will work out for them.
- epicureanideal 6y ago
  Really? What degrees have you seen from software engineer H1B candidates?
  - mavelikara 6y ago
    > What degrees have you seen from software engineer H1B candidates? I am not the person you are replying to, but a bachelor degree in one of the engineering disciplines is very common.
  - StreamBright 6y ago
    Mechanical engineering, electrical engineering are common ones.
ocommentator 6y ago
"…to lower overall pay rate." What's with this nationalism and view human value? Just because a person was or wasn't born in a certain place, something they had no ability to affect, they have more or less right to a certain job with a certain salary in a certain place? Looking at it from the other perspective of the individual who can get a job, they are probably not lowering their salaries, but rather significantly increasing it. And looking at this from an historical context for the USA makes it even more absurd. Most people with these high paying jobs in the US are direct descendants of people who immigrated to the US with the sole purpose of getting a higher salary – because of poverty and lack of economic opportunities in their home countries.
- em500 6y ago
  There are no liberals in foxholes, to paraphrase an old aphorism. (See also: very strict zoning laws in the bluest states/counties.)
- PeterisP 6y ago
  The duty and role of a government is to act in the best interest of their citizens which that government represents. The interests of outsiders are simply not relevant to that - they have their own government to represent their interests, which can and should enact policies that benefit them, and negotiate in international agreements policies that will help their citizens. If it's a win-win situation (which is the expected situation for skilled immigration visas) then sure, we should look at how the incentives are aligned; but when it's a tradeoff between the interests of your citizens and foreigners, then the government is elected to ensure that the interests of their citizens are facilitated - if need be, at the expense of others, to whom the government has no inherent duty whatsoever except the voluntarily undertaken commitments to certain international treaties. And if the government is implementing some policies that hurt their citizens to benefit others (which it may well do for all kinds of reasons - e.g. governments do humanitarian aid, which costs your citizens and benefits others, but presumably with support from the voters/taxpayers), then that has to happen due to the choice and consent of these citizens, otherwise they have all right to replace the government with something that will act as the citizens desire.
xwolfi 6y ago
I emigrated to Hong Kong from France and I love the system here. It mandated a "high" salary of 2000USD that is low enough to allow noobs like me to join and try while high enough not to bring people who would just try to survive no better than at home. They also mandate a master degree and low effort from the company, which can be negociated if really strong guy (bachelor with some effory, expert reputation with high effort). Then they give a permanent residency after 7 years of taxes but no path to nationality so the only way to persist is to make children locally, another interesting point: you ll never be Chinese but your kids can, which makes also the immigration problem drama free. I quite wish France tried that because we feel (might not be rational) we have so many issues with our immigration.
- wegs 6y ago
  Thousands of people have made it down the path to nationality in Honk Kong. Acquiring Chinese nationality -- whether mainland or not -- is possible. It's just that the standards are very, very, very exclusive.
  - tellarin 6y ago
    Can you offer any links? As far as I know, becoming a citizen is next to impossible. Also, one would have to renounce any other citizenship.
    - wegs 6y ago
      In mainland China, the only examples I've heard of were leading academics. The standard is "outstanding contributions" to China. That's what I mean by "very high bar." Next to impossible is not a bad way to describe it, but next to impossible isn't the same as impossible. Thousands have done it. That's not a lot. I don't think it's even tens of thousands. On paper, there is also path by which you can marry into Chinese citizenship, but it's exceptionally rare in practice. "Renounce other citizenships" is complex. Many nations don't provide a citizens with a means to stop being citizen. Which is to say, if you take a Chinese (or any other) citizenship, and renounce your old citizenship, you may still end up with both citizenships. I don't know specifics about Honk Kong, but I do know the standards are laxer than mainland China.
jackpeterfletch 6y ago
I understand why these credit systems are in place. But I do find myself feeling sorry for the fact that they basically discriminate against those whom are not rich and/or are lesser educated. In many cases they're the people that would benefit the most from being allowed to walk away from a system thats failed them. I don't really have a solution, just a thought.

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

Florin_Andrei 6y ago

What makes the immigration process in the US truly horrific is the extraordinary time it takes to approve or reject a greencard petition. In many cases it takes years - or even over a decade or more. That's insane. People bring their spouses here, they have kids who are born and go to school here, and all along the way their immigration status is uncertain. And meanwhile they are tied to whatever job they're in. It's insane. Make that process faster. Give people a thumbs-up or thumbs-down like 10x faster. Months not years.

rayiner 6y ago
It’s insane because it’s a kludge. The US doesn’t really have a general purpose skilled immigration visa. The H1B visa is a temporary worker visa. There is this whole legal fiction where, when you get one, you have to announce non-immigrant intent with a wink, then once you’re here you say “I just now changed my mind and I want to stay here, can I get a green card.” It was never designed to be a payday to permanent residency, because the grand bargain of the law in the 1960s was that it wouldn’t increase immigration. They should just repeal the law and design a real point-based permanent immigration system from scratch.
- doingmyting 6y ago
  The H1-B visa is a dual intent visa. There is no announ inc immigration intent with a wink. It's literally written into the law that it is ok to do so. I won't argue whether that's a good thing or a bad thing but simply saying it's a temporary work visa and leaving it at that is inaccurate at best and disingenuous at worst.
- what_ever 6y ago
  H1-B is dual intent - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dual_intent so there is no winking required. H1-B can last for 6 years (can be extended beyond that too but let's not get into that) and I think 6 years should be enough for one to get the GC. But otherwise I agree with rest of your points.
  - _jgdh 6y ago
    > I think 6 years should be enough I’m guessing you don’t know very many Indians?
    - what_ever 6y ago
      I am one. I was talking more about the intentions behind it.
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]

epicureanideal 6y ago

The pay level still isn’t high enough. Minimum pay of about 170k in San Jose for a software engineer? That’s not a specialist, that’s average for a small startup.

carlmr 6y ago
It should be location based. 170k is an expert in many areas of the country. Maybe something like upper 2% of salaries in the county. A fixed number will never be appropriate for all the areas in the US, and a fixed number will always need to be adapted.
- brabel 6y ago
  According to this[1], with 140k you're in the top 5% Americans, so you're not far off... but regulating immigrant's salaries on a regional basis seems unfeasible, as they're free to move anywhere in the country AFAIK, just like any other US resident. [1] https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/ https://wallethacks.com/average-median-income-in-america/
  - carlmr 6y ago
    I don't understand why that would make it infeasible. Whichever place they choose, they have to get a job that's actually highly paid for that area.
  - Broken_Hippo 6y ago
    Why is it unfeasible? Companies give cost of living raises - and pay cuts - depending on where someone lives in the US. If companies can figure this stuff out, why can't the government? Don't companies get their cost of living data from government agencies anyway?
    - bluGill 6y ago
      As someone who lives in a different state I object to someone who is otherwise equal in ability to me earning more for the same work (I have personal reasons to not want to move to CA). I understand why companies do it (only those who have a reason they need to stay in CA - why google doesn't move doesn't make sense), but I will object to my government encouraging the situation even more. My representative needs to be sensitive to that.

StreamBright 6y ago

>> I'm not sure that narrowing degree qualifications is a win Yep this is a problem, some (many) H1B people do not have a relevant degree in CS, not sure how this will work out for them.

epicureanideal 6y ago
Really? What degrees have you seen from software engineer H1B candidates?
- mavelikara 6y ago
  > What degrees have you seen from software engineer H1B candidates? I am not the person you are replying to, but a bachelor degree in one of the engineering disciplines is very common.
- StreamBright 6y ago
  Mechanical engineering, electrical engineering are common ones.

ocommentator 6y ago

"…to lower overall pay rate." What's with this nationalism and view human value? Just because a person was or wasn't born in a certain place, something they had no ability to affect, they have more or less right to a certain job with a certain salary in a certain place? Looking at it from the other perspective of the individual who can get a job, they are probably not lowering their salaries, but rather significantly increasing it. And looking at this from an historical context for the USA makes it even more absurd. Most people with these high paying jobs in the US are direct descendants of people who immigrated to the US with the sole purpose of getting a higher salary – because of poverty and lack of economic opportunities in their home countries.

em500 6y ago
There are no liberals in foxholes, to paraphrase an old aphorism. (See also: very strict zoning laws in the bluest states/counties.)
PeterisP 6y ago
The duty and role of a government is to act in the best interest of their citizens which that government represents. The interests of outsiders are simply not relevant to that - they have their own government to represent their interests, which can and should enact policies that benefit them, and negotiate in international agreements policies that will help their citizens. If it's a win-win situation (which is the expected situation for skilled immigration visas) then sure, we should look at how the incentives are aligned; but when it's a tradeoff between the interests of your citizens and foreigners, then the government is elected to ensure that the interests of their citizens are facilitated - if need be, at the expense of others, to whom the government has no inherent duty whatsoever except the voluntarily undertaken commitments to certain international treaties. And if the government is implementing some policies that hurt their citizens to benefit others (which it may well do for all kinds of reasons - e.g. governments do humanitarian aid, which costs your citizens and benefits others, but presumably with support from the voters/taxpayers), then that has to happen due to the choice and consent of these citizens, otherwise they have all right to replace the government with something that will act as the citizens desire.

xwolfi 6y ago

I emigrated to Hong Kong from France and I love the system here. It mandated a "high" salary of 2000USD that is low enough to allow noobs like me to join and try while high enough not to bring people who would just try to survive no better than at home. They also mandate a master degree and low effort from the company, which can be negociated if really strong guy (bachelor with some effory, expert reputation with high effort). Then they give a permanent residency after 7 years of taxes but no path to nationality so the only way to persist is to make children locally, another interesting point: you ll never be Chinese but your kids can, which makes also the immigration problem drama free. I quite wish France tried that because we feel (might not be rational) we have so many issues with our immigration.

wegs 6y ago
Thousands of people have made it down the path to nationality in Honk Kong. Acquiring Chinese nationality -- whether mainland or not -- is possible. It's just that the standards are very, very, very exclusive.
- tellarin 6y ago
  Can you offer any links? As far as I know, becoming a citizen is next to impossible. Also, one would have to renounce any other citizenship.
  - wegs 6y ago
    In mainland China, the only examples I've heard of were leading academics. The standard is "outstanding contributions" to China. That's what I mean by "very high bar." Next to impossible is not a bad way to describe it, but next to impossible isn't the same as impossible. Thousands have done it. That's not a lot. I don't think it's even tens of thousands. On paper, there is also path by which you can marry into Chinese citizenship, but it's exceptionally rare in practice. "Renounce other citizenships" is complex. Many nations don't provide a citizens with a means to stop being citizen. Which is to say, if you take a Chinese (or any other) citizenship, and renounce your old citizenship, you may still end up with both citizenships. I don't know specifics about Honk Kong, but I do know the standards are laxer than mainland China.

jackpeterfletch 6y ago

I understand why these credit systems are in place. But I do find myself feeling sorry for the fact that they basically discriminate against those whom are not rich and/or are lesser educated. In many cases they're the people that would benefit the most from being allowed to walk away from a system thats failed them. I don't really have a solution, just a thought.