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The problem with this is that H1Bs are not just for software engineering jobs. Other professions that qualify are things like accountants, or health care worker

The problem with this is that H1Bs are not just for software engineering jobs. Other professions that qualify are things like accountants, or health care workers. If it was a straight up "who pays the most", then the software industry (mostly FAANG) would end up with 80k H1Bs per year, and other industries would still not be able to hire for jobs they can't fill locally.

TuringNYC 6y ago
The H1B system is supposed to be for shortages. In a real economic shortage, prices are supposed to go up. If salaries are not going up, it is not a real shortage. I think there is a shortage, so I'm proposing increasing salaries. Accounting firms are not competing with tech firms necessarily, they are competing with the market for accountants (lots of accountants go into other fields because they cant find work at a suitable rate.) Their business model should not be to underpay workers, it should be to pay workers high enough to attract them and charge customers appropriately.
- nrmitchi 6y ago
  > Accounting firms are not competing with tech firms necessarily, they are competing with the market for accountants Yes, I'm not disagreeing with this. However if you put ALL H1Bs in a single pool, and they go to the highest bidder across all industries, then yes, accounting firms are competing with tech firms.
  - gwd 6y ago
    > accounting firms are competing with tech firms. I think GP's point is that that's the way it's supposed to be. The shortage of accountants could be due to some combination of: 1. There are not enough people with the physical / mental / psychological capability to be accountants in the US 2. People with the physical / mental / psychological capability to be accountants are choosing other jobs; perhaps because they pay better, or are more fun, or have better work/life balance, or whatever. #1 is a reason to steal^W import capable people from other countries; but I doubt very much that's the source of accounting's problems. It's almost certainly #2. In which case, if accounting firms want more accountants, they should make the job more attractive: pay more, have better hours, etc.
    - TuringNYC 6y ago
      Correct, this was exactly my point. The last thing is -- if the Accounting Firm business model doesnt work w/ fair wages, then the firms need to re-think how much they charge ("lets abuse desperate foreign workers" isn't really a good business model.)
  - chii 6y ago
    but it does not need to be single pool for auctions to work - each category of work could have their own individual auction.
    - nrmitchi 6y ago
      Entirely possible, but that's not what was suggested. I think there would also be debate around how the quota is split between categories. I highly suspect that are much few Foreign Law advisors or Psychologists attempting to get H1Bs than there are "IT/Computer Professionals" (and many less positions available for them); giving each category an equal split wouldn't be fair either. I'm not saying there isn't a way, but it would have issues too.
  - Wintereise 6y ago
    Seems like a trivially solved problem by introducing industry-specific segmentation. Your company has to declare what industry segment they're in when submitting annual returns anyway (here), not sure if it's the same case in the US.
jojobas 6y ago
There's no such thing as "can't fill locally", there's "can't fill locally right now". The sacrifice to the "right now" bit is immense, it destroys incentive to learn pretty much anything.
- nrmitchi 6y ago
  When you're trying to hire someone, "right now" is important. If I want to hire a nurse, and there are no nurses available, I can't afford to wait 4 years for someone to train as a nurse to be available for me to hire. If I just keep offering to pay more, then yes, I will eventually be able to hire a nurse that was previously employed somewhere else, but now _that_ person needs to hire a nurse. No matter how many times you go around this circle, there are not enough nurses for everyone to hire. That is a shortage. A shortage doesn't typically come with the asterisk of "but if I wait long enough then maybe there won't be".
  - jojobas 6y ago
    While that is true, ignoring the fact that H1B destroys the feedback between shortage and supply is just as bad. Possible solutions are: -Require the hirer to contribute to scholarship funding in the area of work - Limit H1B to 75th percentile in salary terms.
    - nrmitchi 6y ago
      > - Limit H1B to 75th percentile in salary terms. Do you mean, cap the amount of money a company is allowed to pay someone on an H1B? The entire change of rules here is because companies were not paying market rate. Requiring them to not pay market rate defeats the purpose here entirely. If you mean require that companies pay _at least_ the 75th percentile, then yes, I believe that is what the action that this entire thread is about is going. I would also disagree that H1B destroys the feedback loop of jobs being needed. I don't believe the number of H1Bs issued is any where near large enough to disrupt an entire industry.
      - 6y ago
ajsnigrutin 6y ago
So what? If there is not enough workers, they'll have to raise wages. What's wrong with healthcare workers getting 80k? (in reality, they'd poach someone elses workers, they'd have to raise their wages, and so on, then slowly there would be more workers due to more people going into field due to high wages, and if not, then get a H1B worker for 80k+).

TuringNYC 6y ago

The H1B system is supposed to be for shortages. In a real economic shortage, prices are supposed to go up. If salaries are not going up, it is not a real shortage. I think there is a shortage, so I'm proposing increasing salaries. Accounting firms are not competing with tech firms necessarily, they are competing with the market for accountants (lots of accountants go into other fields because they cant find work at a suitable rate.) Their business model should not be to underpay workers, it should be to pay workers high enough to attract them and charge customers appropriately.

nrmitchi 6y ago
> Accounting firms are not competing with tech firms necessarily, they are competing with the market for accountants Yes, I'm not disagreeing with this. However if you put ALL H1Bs in a single pool, and they go to the highest bidder across all industries, then yes, accounting firms are competing with tech firms.
- gwd 6y ago
  > accounting firms are competing with tech firms. I think GP's point is that that's the way it's supposed to be. The shortage of accountants could be due to some combination of: 1. There are not enough people with the physical / mental / psychological capability to be accountants in the US 2. People with the physical / mental / psychological capability to be accountants are choosing other jobs; perhaps because they pay better, or are more fun, or have better work/life balance, or whatever. #1 is a reason to steal^W import capable people from other countries; but I doubt very much that's the source of accounting's problems. It's almost certainly #2. In which case, if accounting firms want more accountants, they should make the job more attractive: pay more, have better hours, etc.
  - TuringNYC 6y ago
    Correct, this was exactly my point. The last thing is -- if the Accounting Firm business model doesnt work w/ fair wages, then the firms need to re-think how much they charge ("lets abuse desperate foreign workers" isn't really a good business model.)
- chii 6y ago
  but it does not need to be single pool for auctions to work - each category of work could have their own individual auction.
  - nrmitchi 6y ago
    Entirely possible, but that's not what was suggested. I think there would also be debate around how the quota is split between categories. I highly suspect that are much few Foreign Law advisors or Psychologists attempting to get H1Bs than there are "IT/Computer Professionals" (and many less positions available for them); giving each category an equal split wouldn't be fair either. I'm not saying there isn't a way, but it would have issues too.
- Wintereise 6y ago
  Seems like a trivially solved problem by introducing industry-specific segmentation. Your company has to declare what industry segment they're in when submitting annual returns anyway (here), not sure if it's the same case in the US.

jojobas 6y ago

There's no such thing as "can't fill locally", there's "can't fill locally right now". The sacrifice to the "right now" bit is immense, it destroys incentive to learn pretty much anything.

nrmitchi 6y ago
When you're trying to hire someone, "right now" is important. If I want to hire a nurse, and there are no nurses available, I can't afford to wait 4 years for someone to train as a nurse to be available for me to hire. If I just keep offering to pay more, then yes, I will eventually be able to hire a nurse that was previously employed somewhere else, but now _that_ person needs to hire a nurse. No matter how many times you go around this circle, there are not enough nurses for everyone to hire. That is a shortage. A shortage doesn't typically come with the asterisk of "but if I wait long enough then maybe there won't be".
- jojobas 6y ago
  While that is true, ignoring the fact that H1B destroys the feedback between shortage and supply is just as bad. Possible solutions are: -Require the hirer to contribute to scholarship funding in the area of work - Limit H1B to 75th percentile in salary terms.
  - nrmitchi 6y ago
    > - Limit H1B to 75th percentile in salary terms. Do you mean, cap the amount of money a company is allowed to pay someone on an H1B? The entire change of rules here is because companies were not paying market rate. Requiring them to not pay market rate defeats the purpose here entirely. If you mean require that companies pay _at least_ the 75th percentile, then yes, I believe that is what the action that this entire thread is about is going. I would also disagree that H1B destroys the feedback loop of jobs being needed. I don't believe the number of H1Bs issued is any where near large enough to disrupt an entire industry.
    - 6y ago

ajsnigrutin 6y ago

So what? If there is not enough workers, they'll have to raise wages. What's wrong with healthcare workers getting 80k? (in reality, they'd poach someone elses workers, they'd have to raise their wages, and so on, then slowly there would be more workers due to more people going into field due to high wages, and if not, then get a H1B worker for 80k+).