7 ms·

> The H1B program has been abused for a long time What's the abuse?

by notJim 6y ago

mikeyouse 6y ago
"Body shops" like Infosys and Tata Consulting that import thousands of H1Bs under borderline fraudulent applications, and then underpay these employees. Just a random link, but the contours of the problem: https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/ https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pr...
- zerr 6y ago
  50k-60k is pretty normal in many places in US. Were they bringing staff in SF or NYC?
  - deleted 6y ago
    [deleted]
  - dodobirdlord 6y ago
    H1B visas are in theory intended to be awarded only when there is a shortage of some specialized labor and it is not possible to find enough qualified candidates within the country. If a person hired under that premise ends up making a “pretty normal” wage it’s a pretty clear sign that the process is being abused.
    - AnAnonyCowherd 6y ago
      I work for a company that's about 30th in terms of H1B's. All around me, I see degreed engineers -- many with their Masters -- doing clerical work that a sharp high-school graduate could do. I'm not talking about a few. I'm talking about dozens. There's nothing about what they're doing that requires specific engineering knowledge. They only have to be conversant about what the actual engineers are doing. So the effect is 2-fold: the fact that his arrangement exists puts downward pressure on wages for the skilled jobs, but it also takes great opportunities away from people who would have gotten those jobs a few decades ago.
- tylerhou 6y ago
  Sure, there are low paid H1B workers, but why is that necessarily a problem? Your link shows no evidence that they depress the wages or employment of native-born workers. In fact, there are many proper economic analyses that show that native-born workers benefit from immigration: https://www.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/3pi8vo/highskill_immigration_is_bad_mmkay/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/3pi8vo/highsk...
  - mikeyouse 6y ago
    I'm fully supportive of massively more immigration - I believe it's a net economic positive and a moral imperative. At the same time, if a program is designed to bring in 'exceptional talent' but is really just importing mediocre drones from a single country, that's not really serving the purpose of the program. Let's fix H1Bs and then work on more equitable ways to allow other forms of beneficial immigration.
    - AnAnonyCowherd 6y ago
      > At the same time, if a program There's no "if" here.
    - AndriyKunitsyn 6y ago
      So, draining talent from less successful countries with a desperate need of this talent is a ‘moral imperative’ to you?
      - mikeyouse 6y ago
        Aside from all of the evidence that both countries benefit in these arrangements as people skill up and often move home later on, letting free citizens choose where to maximize their livelihoods is a moral imperative, yes.
        AndriyKunitsyn 6y ago
        >Aside from all of the evidence that both countries benefit in these arrangements as people skill up and often move home later on Can you please provide this evidence? I want to be educated on that. I thought that returning home is really rare for these people, and it does not compensate negative effects of the "brain drain" at all. >letting free citizens choose where to maximize their livelihoods is a moral imperative, yes People should be free to pursue whatever they want, no questioning that. However, elites of the US create such conditions that the best career path for the people from less fortunate countries is to move out, break cultural bonds and, probably, make the countries that they moved from, even less fortunate in the end - is it really moral? I think that the most moral option would be increasing investment and creating child companies in countries where these people move from, creating nice jobs outside of the US, so nobody would have to move anywhere.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
IvyMike 6y ago
There's lots of articles if you google for "h1b visa abuse", but this will get you started: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3004501/proof-that-h-1b-visa-abuse-is-rampant-in-tech.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/3004501/proof-that-h-1b-vi...
- redditmigrant 6y ago
  There are lots of articles on how vaccines cause autism also.
  - dpoochieni 6y ago
    Correlation is not causation, but maybe you should read them.
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
A majority of H1B visas are currently issued to relatively low paying consulting firms, who are then hired by big enterprises in place of their more expensive technical employees. This isn't supposed to be legal - you're not allowed to hire H1B employees if an equally qualified American could have filled their role - but due to the specifics of how the program is administered you can often pull it off with that kind of arms-length deal.
- verst 6y ago
  Check this out: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/Approved_H-1B_2019_Employers.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/Appr... Contrast that with the previous year: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/Approved_H-1B_2018_Employers.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/Appr... You can see that the outsourcing firms have fewer and fewer approvals. Of course with this latest change it will decline more.
- balls187 6y ago
  This happens to US workers too. "Bottom" performing FTE's are let go as part of annual stack ranking, only to be hired by staffing agencies, and contracted back to large tech companies. It's a way for tech companies to retain people who are necessary to perform the work, but at reduced wages.
JohnBooty 6y ago
You're bound to the employer that sponsors your visa. Lose your job? You're effectively deported. Your employer has... well, a power imbalance over you, to put it nicely. I'm not sure how the proposed changes will play out for American workers. Theoretically, treating H1B workers better could benefit American workers: there is less incentive to callously replace them with underpaid H1B workers. On the other hand, American workers will face increased competition, it seems to me.
- menage 6y ago
  If you can find another employer to take over the sponsorship, you can transfer (without having to deal with the visa quota gantlet).
  - Lammy 6y ago
    Do you think the possibility of finding a new job makes H1B workers feel any more capable of standing up for their beliefs at work and maybe saying "No" when asked to build something evil?
    - menage 6y ago
      It may not eliminate it, but I'm sure it improves the situation compared to not being able to change jobs at all. I originally came to the US on an H-1B, and had no trouble transferring the visa to a new employer.
      - switch11 6y ago
        and for that you had to find a job get/consult a lawyer to make sure everything was good do the whole change and end up in the exact same situation Situation: You are tied to ONE employer and if something goes wrong they can just end your job and kick you out I've done the change so let's not pretend it is some super easy, doesn't matter thing Also, if you have to leave US where do you have to go? If you have to go back to UK or Canada that is no big loss If, on the other hand you have to go back to China or India or AFrica then your entire family is #$@$#$%
ajsnigrutin 6y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff...
ponker 6y ago
The abuse is that the H1B program is supposed to be for truly distinctive skills. But the "body shops" bring people with very low skill.
- JAlexoid 6y ago
  Nope. There's a self sponsored immigrant visa. H1B is just your regular temp.
outworlder 6y ago
> What's the abuse? That's probably about the handful of consulting companies doing shady stuff. Not the overall program as a whole.
JAlexoid 6y ago
It's inherently abusive. You're tied to a pool of employers and have to get government permission to transfer employment. Your employer has an enormous power over you, with little recourse on your side.... as if employers didn't have enormous power over their employees as is.

> The H1B program has been abused for a long time What's the abuse?

by notJim 6y ago

> The H1B program has been abused for a long time What's the abuse?

"Body shops" like Infosys and Tata Consulting that import thousands of H1Bs under borderline fraudulent applications, and then underpay these employees. Just a random link, but the contours of the problem: https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-program/ https://www.epi.org/blog/new-data-infosys-tata-abuse-h-1b-pr...

zerr 6y ago
50k-60k is pretty normal in many places in US. Were they bringing staff in SF or NYC?
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
- dodobirdlord 6y ago
  H1B visas are in theory intended to be awarded only when there is a shortage of some specialized labor and it is not possible to find enough qualified candidates within the country. If a person hired under that premise ends up making a “pretty normal” wage it’s a pretty clear sign that the process is being abused.
  - AnAnonyCowherd 6y ago
    I work for a company that's about 30th in terms of H1B's. All around me, I see degreed engineers -- many with their Masters -- doing clerical work that a sharp high-school graduate could do. I'm not talking about a few. I'm talking about dozens. There's nothing about what they're doing that requires specific engineering knowledge. They only have to be conversant about what the actual engineers are doing. So the effect is 2-fold: the fact that his arrangement exists puts downward pressure on wages for the skilled jobs, but it also takes great opportunities away from people who would have gotten those jobs a few decades ago.
tylerhou 6y ago
Sure, there are low paid H1B workers, but why is that necessarily a problem? Your link shows no evidence that they depress the wages or employment of native-born workers. In fact, there are many proper economic analyses that show that native-born workers benefit from immigration: https://www.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/3pi8vo/highskill_immigration_is_bad_mmkay/ https://www.reddit.com/r/badeconomics/comments/3pi8vo/highsk...
- mikeyouse 6y ago
  I'm fully supportive of massively more immigration - I believe it's a net economic positive and a moral imperative. At the same time, if a program is designed to bring in 'exceptional talent' but is really just importing mediocre drones from a single country, that's not really serving the purpose of the program. Let's fix H1Bs and then work on more equitable ways to allow other forms of beneficial immigration.
  - AnAnonyCowherd 6y ago
    > At the same time, if a program There's no "if" here.
  - AndriyKunitsyn 6y ago
    So, draining talent from less successful countries with a desperate need of this talent is a ‘moral imperative’ to you?
    - mikeyouse 6y ago
      Aside from all of the evidence that both countries benefit in these arrangements as people skill up and often move home later on, letting free citizens choose where to maximize their livelihoods is a moral imperative, yes.
      - AndriyKunitsyn 6y ago
        >Aside from all of the evidence that both countries benefit in these arrangements as people skill up and often move home later on Can you please provide this evidence? I want to be educated on that. I thought that returning home is really rare for these people, and it does not compensate negative effects of the "brain drain" at all. >letting free citizens choose where to maximize their livelihoods is a moral imperative, yes People should be free to pursue whatever they want, no questioning that. However, elites of the US create such conditions that the best career path for the people from less fortunate countries is to move out, break cultural bonds and, probably, make the countries that they moved from, even less fortunate in the end - is it really moral? I think that the most moral option would be increasing investment and creating child companies in countries where these people move from, creating nice jobs outside of the US, so nobody would have to move anywhere.
deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

IvyMike 6y ago

There's lots of articles if you google for "h1b visa abuse", but this will get you started: https://www.infoworld.com/article/3004501/proof-that-h-1b-visa-abuse-is-rampant-in-tech.html https://www.infoworld.com/article/3004501/proof-that-h-1b-vi...

redditmigrant 6y ago
There are lots of articles on how vaccines cause autism also.
- dpoochieni 6y ago
  Correlation is not causation, but maybe you should read them.

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

A majority of H1B visas are currently issued to relatively low paying consulting firms, who are then hired by big enterprises in place of their more expensive technical employees. This isn't supposed to be legal - you're not allowed to hire H1B employees if an equally qualified American could have filled their role - but due to the specifics of how the program is administered you can often pull it off with that kind of arms-length deal.

verst 6y ago
Check this out: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/Approved_H-1B_2019_Employers.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/Appr... Contrast that with the previous year: https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/Approved_H-1B_2018_Employers.pdf https://www.uscis.gov/sites/default/files/document/data/Appr... You can see that the outsourcing firms have fewer and fewer approvals. Of course with this latest change it will decline more.
balls187 6y ago
This happens to US workers too. "Bottom" performing FTE's are let go as part of annual stack ranking, only to be hired by staffing agencies, and contracted back to large tech companies. It's a way for tech companies to retain people who are necessary to perform the work, but at reduced wages.

JohnBooty 6y ago

You're bound to the employer that sponsors your visa. Lose your job? You're effectively deported. Your employer has... well, a power imbalance over you, to put it nicely. I'm not sure how the proposed changes will play out for American workers. Theoretically, treating H1B workers better could benefit American workers: there is less incentive to callously replace them with underpaid H1B workers. On the other hand, American workers will face increased competition, it seems to me.

menage 6y ago
If you can find another employer to take over the sponsorship, you can transfer (without having to deal with the visa quota gantlet).
- Lammy 6y ago
  Do you think the possibility of finding a new job makes H1B workers feel any more capable of standing up for their beliefs at work and maybe saying "No" when asked to build something evil?
  - menage 6y ago
    It may not eliminate it, but I'm sure it improves the situation compared to not being able to change jobs at all. I originally came to the US on an H-1B, and had no trouble transferring the visa to a new employer.
    - switch11 6y ago
      and for that you had to find a job get/consult a lawyer to make sure everything was good do the whole change and end up in the exact same situation Situation: You are tied to ONE employer and if something goes wrong they can just end your job and kick you out I've done the change so let's not pretend it is some super easy, doesn't matter thing Also, if you have to leave US where do you have to go? If you have to go back to UK or Canada that is no big loss If, on the other hand you have to go back to China or India or AFrica then your entire family is #$@$#$%

ajsnigrutin 6y ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff-at-disney-train-foreign-replacements.html https://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/04/us/last-task-after-layoff...

ponker 6y ago

The abuse is that the H1B program is supposed to be for truly distinctive skills. But the "body shops" bring people with very low skill.

JAlexoid 6y ago
Nope. There's a self sponsored immigrant visa. H1B is just your regular temp.

outworlder 6y ago

> What's the abuse? That's probably about the handful of consulting companies doing shady stuff. Not the overall program as a whole.

JAlexoid 6y ago

It's inherently abusive. You're tied to a pool of employers and have to get government permission to transfer employment. Your employer has an enormous power over you, with little recourse on your side.... as if employers didn't have enormous power over their employees as is.