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All previous major spreadsheet screwups were costing money (largest being $6 billion in losses due to a excel formula mishap) , but this one is playing with liv

All previous major spreadsheet screwups were costing money (largest being $6 billion in losses due to a excel formula mishap) , but this one is playing with lives :( 5 – London Olympics Oversells Swimming Event by 10,000 Tickets 4- Banking powerhouse Barclay’s accidentally bought 179 more contracts than they intended in their purchase of Lehman Brothers assets in 2008. Someone hid cells containing the unwanted contract instead of deleting them. 3-utsourcing specialists Mouchel had to endure a £4.3 million profits write down due to a spreadsheet error in a pension fund deficit caused by an outside firm of actuaries 2- Canadian power generator TransAlta suffered losses of $24 million as the result of a simple clerical error which meant they bought US contracts at higher prices than they should hav and the Biggest one is. - Basic Excel flaws and incorrect testing led to JP Morgan Chase losing more than $6 billion in their London Whale disaster. https://floatapp.com/us/blog/5-greatest-spreadsheet-errors-of-all-time/ https://floatapp.com/us/blog/5-greatest-spreadsheet-errors-o...

tsjq 6y ago
and one more: "Scientists rename human genes to stop Microsoft Excel from misreading them as dates. Sometimes it’s easier to rewrite genetics than update Excel" https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-rename-microsoft-excel-misreading-dates https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-renam...
- computerfriend 6y ago
  Also the post-2008 financial crisis austerity programs based on Excel analysis. https://mathbabe.org/2013/04/17/global-move-to-austerity-based-on-mistake-in-excel/ https://mathbabe.org/2013/04/17/global-move-to-austerity-bas...
  - rjtavares 6y ago
    Austerity wasn't based on that study, and it didn't go away once that error was found.
    - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
      That study was the intellectual justification for the policy. To be fair, I'm not sure if any of the proponents actually believed (or had read) the study, but it was definitely wheeled out in debates against Keynesians.
- teekert 6y ago
  Yeah, why there is no "scientific" mode to just turn of all "smartness" has baffled me for years and will probably continue to baffle me for years to come. Or even an algorithm that can detect that you are using gene name from the cells around march1 and sept7.
- simonh 6y ago
  I think that's a good way forward, Excel is a fantastically powerful, ubiquitous tool and isn't going away any time soon. If you're going to standardise on a technology, it makes sense to design your systems to work well with that technology. That includes making identifiers that you need to be treated like strings look like strings to your tools. A little bit of thought in advance and maybe some small compromises early on can save massive problems down the line.
  - bregma 6y ago
    A master crafter always adjusts their industry to match the currently popular tools. That's why we still use reins to steer automobiles and aircraft.
thedudeabides5 6y ago
Well, not exactly like non-Excel systems are bulletproof either. Entire Japanese stock market went down last week, and it's not like there was a flood of people on HN bemoaning that. At least with Reinhart and Rogoff et al you have a responsible party. As opposed to 'nameless machine failed, and nameless backup machine also failed, and now it's in JIRA so don't worry about it'. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/business/tokyo-stock-market-glitch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/business/tokyo-stock-mark... The glitch stemmed from a problem in the hardware that powers the exchange, said the Japan Exchange Group, the exchange’s operator, during a news conference. The system failed to switch to a backup in response to the problem, a representative said.
- totaldude87 6y ago
  Reminds me of this - https://www.reddit.com/r/programminghorror/comments/fv7qi7/boeing_making_coding_mistake_since_1997/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/programminghorror/comments/fv7qi7/b...
  - Retric 6y ago
    That example is overblown as the system is supposed to be restarted more frequently than that for maintenance. A better example is cars have been frequently rebooting various internal computers while your driving for decades, that seems bad but it’s similarly irrelevant.
- Bukhmanizer 6y ago
  I think similar to “code smells” in software engineering, using excel for critical data pipeline work can be considered a “data smell”. It’s not bad in and of itself, but it’s a signal that something may have gone seriously wrong with the data engineering process.
  - andreareina 6y ago
    Unfortunately excel is the lingua franca of data exchange in SME
swiley 6y ago
Is it really that hard to spend 5 minutes setting up a decent database? Use sqlite if you really want something simple. I guess you still have to understand locking (especially on distributed filesystems.) I've certainly seen people mess that up with spreadsheets.
- _trampeltier 6y ago
  The problem is people can't do this in a office. Nobody has admin rights on there computers. Everybody know how yo use Excel. We all know, if you have to make a ticket to your office IT for such things, you mostly have to wait a long long time and it never, never works the first time. I guess that is one of the main reasons, why the world runs on Excel (and MS Access). It just works, it's just there, no dealing with IT.
  - regularfry 6y ago
    Sqlite is a bit of a special case, in my eyes. It's so ubiquitous that it's probably already installed somewhere on the average machine, just not as a top-level application. Of course, there's a bit of a gap between "it's there on the machine" and "we can rely on it for useful work", but baby steps...
- 29athrowaway 6y ago
  Whenever you try to do something properly, some person in your organization condescendingly says "perfect is the enemy of the good". And because Excel is "good" for a vast number of use-cases then people use it for everything.
  - rawoke083600 6y ago
    Hey come now... we both need each other /s
- EpicEng 6y ago
  Sure, I'll just teach tell my wife to learn SQL and some devops while she's at it. After that I'll coach her on how to get buy in from management on this new system while she neglects her primary duties. Throwing up a database and integrating it into a workflow/system isn't something anyone can just get up and do. I have to imagein you know that.
koliber 6y ago
They are costing money. No doubt. At the same time, the business world runs on Excel. How much money is Excel making? I've done my share of cursing at Excel at various jobs. At the same time, I am grateful for the quick and easy way it allows me and many others to manipulate data. It's unfair to just cite the costs of using Excel without acknowledging the benefits it brings.
- collyw 6y ago
  The real question should be would it be cheaper to replace it with a proper solution (probably something custom built application written by a software engineer). Excel's ease of use is it's downfall. It is the worlds most popular database, despite not actually being a database. I have wasted countless hours dealing with Excel where something else should have been used. I built a database for a friend recently, I think 75% of the work was cleaning the existing data from the excel to get it into the database.
  - tiernano 6y ago
    it will only be cheaper after the company loses money... no business person ever looked at something and said "it works, but it might not, some day... better spend $XXX,XXX on an engineer to fix the problem".
    - bregma 6y ago
      You have just identified the new market of Spreadsheet Insurance. I am thinking it could be quite lucrative if you get the right salespeople in on the ground floor. I'm willing to bet no funding source is unfamiliar with the demand for this product.
  - Closi 6y ago
    The problem with a database is that business users struggle to build them, they take longer, and sometimes can’t hold logic in the same way. Plus in a database you can’t do the same sort of real-time analysis and also pass the document around for other non-technical folk to add to and modify. In the real world in big companies, people often don’t want to talk to IT because they over-spec and quote what are perceived to be giant sums of money for something that can be created in an hour in excel.
isolli 6y ago
And how about this one: an Excel error was the cause for much unnecessary austerity after the 2008 financial crisis, costing potentially tens (hundreds?) of billions in lost output. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/krugman-the-excel-depression.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/krugman-the-excel...

tsjq 6y ago

and one more: "Scientists rename human genes to stop Microsoft Excel from misreading them as dates. Sometimes it’s easier to rewrite genetics than update Excel" https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-rename-microsoft-excel-misreading-dates https://www.theverge.com/2020/8/6/21355674/human-genes-renam...

computerfriend 6y ago
Also the post-2008 financial crisis austerity programs based on Excel analysis. https://mathbabe.org/2013/04/17/global-move-to-austerity-based-on-mistake-in-excel/ https://mathbabe.org/2013/04/17/global-move-to-austerity-bas...
- rjtavares 6y ago
  Austerity wasn't based on that study, and it didn't go away once that error was found.
  - disgruntledphd2 6y ago
    That study was the intellectual justification for the policy. To be fair, I'm not sure if any of the proponents actually believed (or had read) the study, but it was definitely wheeled out in debates against Keynesians.
teekert 6y ago
Yeah, why there is no "scientific" mode to just turn of all "smartness" has baffled me for years and will probably continue to baffle me for years to come. Or even an algorithm that can detect that you are using gene name from the cells around march1 and sept7.
simonh 6y ago
I think that's a good way forward, Excel is a fantastically powerful, ubiquitous tool and isn't going away any time soon. If you're going to standardise on a technology, it makes sense to design your systems to work well with that technology. That includes making identifiers that you need to be treated like strings look like strings to your tools. A little bit of thought in advance and maybe some small compromises early on can save massive problems down the line.
- bregma 6y ago
  A master crafter always adjusts their industry to match the currently popular tools. That's why we still use reins to steer automobiles and aircraft.

thedudeabides5 6y ago

Well, not exactly like non-Excel systems are bulletproof either. Entire Japanese stock market went down last week, and it's not like there was a flood of people on HN bemoaning that. At least with Reinhart and Rogoff et al you have a responsible party. As opposed to 'nameless machine failed, and nameless backup machine also failed, and now it's in JIRA so don't worry about it'. https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/business/tokyo-stock-market-glitch.html https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/30/business/tokyo-stock-mark... The glitch stemmed from a problem in the hardware that powers the exchange, said the Japan Exchange Group, the exchange’s operator, during a news conference. The system failed to switch to a backup in response to the problem, a representative said.

totaldude87 6y ago
Reminds me of this - https://www.reddit.com/r/programminghorror/comments/fv7qi7/boeing_making_coding_mistake_since_1997/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app&utm_name=iossmf https://www.reddit.com/r/programminghorror/comments/fv7qi7/b...
- Retric 6y ago
  That example is overblown as the system is supposed to be restarted more frequently than that for maintenance. A better example is cars have been frequently rebooting various internal computers while your driving for decades, that seems bad but it’s similarly irrelevant.
Bukhmanizer 6y ago
I think similar to “code smells” in software engineering, using excel for critical data pipeline work can be considered a “data smell”. It’s not bad in and of itself, but it’s a signal that something may have gone seriously wrong with the data engineering process.
- andreareina 6y ago
  Unfortunately excel is the lingua franca of data exchange in SME

swiley 6y ago

Is it really that hard to spend 5 minutes setting up a decent database? Use sqlite if you really want something simple. I guess you still have to understand locking (especially on distributed filesystems.) I've certainly seen people mess that up with spreadsheets.

_trampeltier 6y ago
The problem is people can't do this in a office. Nobody has admin rights on there computers. Everybody know how yo use Excel. We all know, if you have to make a ticket to your office IT for such things, you mostly have to wait a long long time and it never, never works the first time. I guess that is one of the main reasons, why the world runs on Excel (and MS Access). It just works, it's just there, no dealing with IT.
- regularfry 6y ago
  Sqlite is a bit of a special case, in my eyes. It's so ubiquitous that it's probably already installed somewhere on the average machine, just not as a top-level application. Of course, there's a bit of a gap between "it's there on the machine" and "we can rely on it for useful work", but baby steps...
29athrowaway 6y ago
Whenever you try to do something properly, some person in your organization condescendingly says "perfect is the enemy of the good". And because Excel is "good" for a vast number of use-cases then people use it for everything.
- rawoke083600 6y ago
  Hey come now... we both need each other /s
EpicEng 6y ago
Sure, I'll just teach tell my wife to learn SQL and some devops while she's at it. After that I'll coach her on how to get buy in from management on this new system while she neglects her primary duties. Throwing up a database and integrating it into a workflow/system isn't something anyone can just get up and do. I have to imagein you know that.

koliber 6y ago

They are costing money. No doubt. At the same time, the business world runs on Excel. How much money is Excel making? I've done my share of cursing at Excel at various jobs. At the same time, I am grateful for the quick and easy way it allows me and many others to manipulate data. It's unfair to just cite the costs of using Excel without acknowledging the benefits it brings.

collyw 6y ago
The real question should be would it be cheaper to replace it with a proper solution (probably something custom built application written by a software engineer). Excel's ease of use is it's downfall. It is the worlds most popular database, despite not actually being a database. I have wasted countless hours dealing with Excel where something else should have been used. I built a database for a friend recently, I think 75% of the work was cleaning the existing data from the excel to get it into the database.
- tiernano 6y ago
  it will only be cheaper after the company loses money... no business person ever looked at something and said "it works, but it might not, some day... better spend $XXX,XXX on an engineer to fix the problem".
  - bregma 6y ago
    You have just identified the new market of Spreadsheet Insurance. I am thinking it could be quite lucrative if you get the right salespeople in on the ground floor. I'm willing to bet no funding source is unfamiliar with the demand for this product.
- Closi 6y ago
  The problem with a database is that business users struggle to build them, they take longer, and sometimes can’t hold logic in the same way. Plus in a database you can’t do the same sort of real-time analysis and also pass the document around for other non-technical folk to add to and modify. In the real world in big companies, people often don’t want to talk to IT because they over-spec and quote what are perceived to be giant sums of money for something that can be created in an hour in excel.

isolli 6y ago

And how about this one: an Excel error was the cause for much unnecessary austerity after the 2008 financial crisis, costing potentially tens (hundreds?) of billions in lost output. https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/krugman-the-excel-depression.html https://www.nytimes.com/2013/04/19/opinion/krugman-the-excel...