6 ms·

IME it's not sitting or standing or lying down that's injurious, it's not moving. My pain to a large extent went away when I stopped staying so still. Now I cha

IME it's not sitting or standing or lying down that's injurious, it's not moving. My pain to a large extent went away when I stopped staying so still. Now I change my posture on the regular, from leaning against the backrest to sitting away from it to taking little breaks to pace around a bit. Similarly, I used to get eye strain from all the screen time. Until I moved to an office with a view and I found myself staring out whenever I would zone out to think. Now I'm working from home and don't have the same inducement to look out and my eyes have started bothering me again. I try to observe 20-20-20 (every 20 minutes spend 20 seconds looking at something 20 feet away) but it's not quite the same.

asdff 6y ago
I think it's pretty healthy to get up and go walk to a window to stare out of it for a spell. I've been trying to take short walks around my block throughout the day to prevent any soreness or posture issues, as well. I didn't realize it, but back before the pandemic I was walking probably 5 miles a day at least commuting and walking around work, plus a dozen or so flights of stairs.
- dkersten 6y ago
  I used to commute to a city from which I live about an hour by train away. I worked from home a lot, but would travel there a lot too and every day I did, I easily walked over 10km each day, since I walked to and from the train station on both sides and in the city I'd walk everywhere too if I was going anywhere for lunch or after work, so it added up very quickly. With covid, I haven't been since early this year and I definitely miss all the walking. I try to go for walks here, but when I went to work there, it was an unconscious thing that I just did without thinking, while here its a decision I have to consciously make, which makes it a lot harder.
djeiasbsbo 6y ago
I am aware of this which is why I have always wanted one of those standing table treadmill combinations. I'm just not sure that I could actually work and concentrate while running... maybe if the table somehow compensated for the shaking caused by running on the treadmill. Or maybe one could use a VR headset instead of a regular display.
- whatsreal 6y ago
  I had a diy one for a while. I found it really hard to type and walk. I can't imagine trying to type and run. These days I just make time for moving outside of work and change my position at work. Standing desk, sitting on an exercise ball, sitting in a chair, repeat.
  - koonsolo 6y ago
    I find it surprisingly easy. Are you able to properly rest your wrists on the table?
- doc_gunthrop 6y ago
  You can't work and concentrate while running. You can only do it walking. Check out Stephen Wolfram's setup: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/ https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod... From his blog post: > But while standing may be better than sitting, I like to at least start my day with something more active, and for more than a decade I’ve been making sure to walk for a couple of hours every morning. But how can I be productive while I’m walking? Well, nearly 15 years ago (i.e. long before it was popular!) I set up a treadmill with a computer in the room next to my office: > The biomechanics weren’t too hard to work out. I found out that by putting a gel strip at the correct pivot point under my wrists (and putting the mouse on a platform) I can comfortably type while I’m walking. I typically use a 5% incline and go at 2 mph—and I’m at least fit enough that I don’t think anyone can tell I’m walking while I’m talking in a meeting. (And, yes, I try to get potentially frustrating meetings scheduled during my walking time, so if I do in fact get frustrated I can just “walk it off” by making the treadmill go a little faster.)
- dementik 6y ago
  I have used "walking desk" setup now for about a year. Treadmill is kind of special walking treadmill, speed ranges from 1-5 km/h (0.5km/h steps). I normally walk about 5-6km per day while working. Mostly speed is 1 or 1.5km/h. Only downside is that when having video meeting, my head is bouncing while walking. Usually leads the conversation on treadmill.
emerongi 6y ago
Same experience. I like to rotate between 2 chairs, sometimes standing up, sometimes laying down. I still have mild back pain sometimes, but it's way better than what it used to be. I used to barely be able to sleep through it. If you are suffering from back pain caused by sitting and have trouble sleeping, I used this video [1] to relieve the pain for a while. It helped so much that after 2-3 weeks of doing it every day 2-3 times, I was able to sleep normally again. I also slept on the ground for a while since my mattress was too soft. I now own a very firm mattress. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO3racIlTcg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO3racIlTcg
cardiffspaceman 6y ago
I have often thought about how driving for hours in a bucket seat, at least in the cars I've owned, has never been a struggle. The only thing that comes out wrong is I don't always hydrate, and that makes me a zombie (which is now a solved problem for me). So that leads to the thought that maybe, have the water supply for the hydroflask at a distance from the desk, so you have to get out of the chair to refill.
- Wistar 6y ago
  Back in 2008, BMW introduced an "active" anti-fatigue feature in their X6 that subtly and continuously changed the contour of the seat. I tried it on a long drive, and it is barely perceptible. If I didn't know I had turned it on, I'm not sure I would have noticed it was on.
  - ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
    Some medical beds have a similar feature where the mattress will inflate/deflate in different areas to best match the patient's weight distribution. They'll also inflate/deflate on a cycle. Supposedly it's good for patients that stay in bed for long periods without moving as it improves circulation, reduces back pain and prevents bed sores.
  - wojciii 6y ago
    I would pay for a chair with this tech. I have back problems which go away when I exercise and some pain when sitting still caused by an accident a few years ago.
  - zwayhowder 6y ago
    I have an Airhawk cushion on my motorcycle and one one of the things I find best about it is everytime I stopped for petrol I'd let a little air out, or add a little air. It took 10s and gave me a different riding position for the next few hours. I can spend a lot longer in the saddle with it than without. (Speaking of saddles, I plan on trying it next time I go horse riding too, though I don't know what my queue will be for adjusting the volume of air).
ende 6y ago
So what you're saying is we need to invent the gyro-desk!
- danudey 6y ago
  so basically just a desk that constantly moves around? I suppose if you want to be 100% ergonomically friendly it should also just leave the room and go for a walk. If you want to keep working, you need to come along!
  - coldtea 6y ago
    >>So what you're saying is we need to invent the gyro-desk! >so basically just a desk that constantly moves around? No, a desk that has a gyro grill attached.
bduerst 6y ago
We used to joke that smokers have great eyes because they take regular screen breaks to go outside and stare at the horizon.
- zwayhowder 6y ago
  Anecdotaly I didn't get proscribed reading glasses until a year or two after I quite smoking... Seriously though, one thing I did find was when I quit smoking my ability to solve complex problems at work went down for a while. I was no longer taking a forced 10 minute break every 60-90 minutes that let my brain reset. (Or explaining my problem out loud to another filthy smoker skulking around the back of the building :D ) Fortunately for me it was about the same time that the Pomodoro technique was featured on Lifehacker and I implemented a similar system to replace the regular nicotine craving induced breaks.
  - plutonic 6y ago
    Nicotine is also an acetylcholinergic stimulant, meaning it aids in the quickness of thought [0]. By removing this from your stack you probably depressed your acetylcholine for a while, making you less able to think clearly. It might also be the lack of breaks too, but who knows. [0]: https://doi.org/10.1093/ntr/nty134 https://doi.org/10.1093/ntr/nty134
- runarberg 6y ago
  My old office had a dart board in the lounge. I think it was quite ingenious in that it forced the workers to focus their eyes differently from their screen time whenever they took a dart break.
  - timeinput 6y ago
    In some parts of the world cigarettes are called darts. I snickered reading your reply because of it.
bee_rider 6y ago
I was hoping that augmented reality headsets would let me code while walking around outside, but it doesn't seem to have come about yet.
koonsolo 6y ago
Buy a standing desk and put a threadmill underneath. I have an electric standing desk from ikea, and bought a walking pad (movable and foldable) for underneath. I was scared that walking would make it too hard to read code, but it actually works really well. I would recommend it to everybody. Mostly I walk about 30 min to an hour in the afternoon. The rest I sit.
dkersten 6y ago
A physiotherapist once said to me that sitting with bad posture isn't even bad for you... as long as you don't stay in the same position too long. So the problem isn't sitting, standing or lying down, its doing those for too long. I suppose probably due to not moving, as you said.
- longtom 6y ago
  A hunched sitting posture and little physical activity does likely impair the metabolism though. The human metabolism has adapted for things to be upright and moving all the time, not for sitting absolutely still with compression forces acting upon the abdominal intestines by being hunched over for hours at a time. https://medium.com/@truppr/long-sitting-how-it-affects-your-health-productivity-and-cuts-lifespan-6e1a2000b0bf https://medium.com/@truppr/long-sitting-how-it-affects-your-...
- kortex 6y ago
  Oh good, my incessant squirming, leg-bouncing and position-shifting has some benefits!
- runarberg 6y ago
  I find my self working more and more sitting on the floor with my legs crossed on a floor pillow and the laptop on top of a shin high living room table. My legs can only take this for about half an hour before I start feeling the lack of blood flow, so I’m forced to change positions, stand up and rest for a little, or move to a desk or to the sofa. Even in the sofa I work sitting with my legs crossed up in the sofa for the same reason. I find this forces me to change my position quite frequently and never work for too long at a time without moving at least a little.
ghaff 6y ago
I'm lucky enough to be able to move around my house a lot and I get up pretty frequently. I actually have a pretty well-equipped office with keyboard tray, dual monitors, and HM chair. But I actually work a fair bit in a nice sunny room with a fairly cheap but comfortable Ikea chair that leans back and a foot rest. I work in that with my laptop just on my lap if I don't need a bunch of screen real estate.
burnte 6y ago
> IME it's not sitting or standing or lying down that's injurious, it's not moving. My pain to a large extent went away when I stopped staying so still. Now I change my posture on the regular, from leaning against the backrest to sitting away from it to taking little breaks to pace around a bit. I'm a big guy, 6'4", and fidgety. Being tall, I learned early on good posture is crucial for a pain free back, as is strong back muscles. Between that and being always moving, I don't deal with a fraction of the body issues a lot of office workers seem to. The worst is long flights, because getting up and walking around at least once an hour is something I don't even have to think about, so planes aren't great for that. On planes I understand why people want comfort at their desk.
ornel 6y ago
I do lots of work in my hammock -- I can shift to many different positions, including putting my feet down and gently pushing side to side. Laptop only, but hopefully eventually with VR
sriku 6y ago
The body is complex. Try not to box its functioning into simplistic principles like "it's not moving". Zen practice, for example, involves sitting as still as you can for 25 mins at a stretch, followed by a meditation walk for a few minutes and then resuming. A retreat (called "sesshin") will typically involve such sitting for about 8-9 hours a day, for 4 days to a week. Monks have been doing this for a couple of millennia at the very least if you consider only Buddhism. In other traditions, monks may sit continuously for far longer than the 25 mins characteristic of current traditions. No longitudinal study of postures can top that record. The sitting posture matters because the spine is kept erect naturally, like a vertical pendulum. Once you get used to it, it is a pretty relaxed posture that feels quite sustainable .. compared to sitting in any chair.
yokto 6y ago
Yes! It's for same kind of reasons that I regularly rotate between 2-3 mice that are as different as possible (size, trackball, etc.).
dmje 6y ago
Totaly agree with this analysis. I've got a Furna motorised standing desk, a wobble board and a kneeling stool. Apart from looking like a middle-class numpty in some kind of hellhole physio studio, it's actually pretty great having lots of options. I've also taken to being fairly strict with a Pomodoro routine. 25 minutes focused (strictly locking down email!) work, 5 minutes when I get up and have a wander around the house. I think my attention is better, my eyes get a chance to rest, less aches. The other thing I did was to start using mouse left-handed. I got terrible RSI with my right (I'm naturally right-handed) and actually although I'm slower with my left it's no bad thing - my movement is more considered, less jerky, and I think has a lower impact on anything likely to trigger RSI. So yeh, I think I'm ok for a death-trap lying down desk, thanks anyway...

asdff 6y ago

I think it's pretty healthy to get up and go walk to a window to stare out of it for a spell. I've been trying to take short walks around my block throughout the day to prevent any soreness or posture issues, as well. I didn't realize it, but back before the pandemic I was walking probably 5 miles a day at least commuting and walking around work, plus a dozen or so flights of stairs.

dkersten 6y ago
I used to commute to a city from which I live about an hour by train away. I worked from home a lot, but would travel there a lot too and every day I did, I easily walked over 10km each day, since I walked to and from the train station on both sides and in the city I'd walk everywhere too if I was going anywhere for lunch or after work, so it added up very quickly. With covid, I haven't been since early this year and I definitely miss all the walking. I try to go for walks here, but when I went to work there, it was an unconscious thing that I just did without thinking, while here its a decision I have to consciously make, which makes it a lot harder.

djeiasbsbo 6y ago

I am aware of this which is why I have always wanted one of those standing table treadmill combinations. I'm just not sure that I could actually work and concentrate while running... maybe if the table somehow compensated for the shaking caused by running on the treadmill. Or maybe one could use a VR headset instead of a regular display.

whatsreal 6y ago
I had a diy one for a while. I found it really hard to type and walk. I can't imagine trying to type and run. These days I just make time for moving outside of work and change my position at work. Standing desk, sitting on an exercise ball, sitting in a chair, repeat.
- koonsolo 6y ago
  I find it surprisingly easy. Are you able to properly rest your wrists on the table?
doc_gunthrop 6y ago
You can't work and concentrate while running. You can only do it walking. Check out Stephen Wolfram's setup: https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-productive-life-some-details-of-my-personal-infrastructure/ https://writings.stephenwolfram.com/2019/02/seeking-the-prod... From his blog post: > But while standing may be better than sitting, I like to at least start my day with something more active, and for more than a decade I’ve been making sure to walk for a couple of hours every morning. But how can I be productive while I’m walking? Well, nearly 15 years ago (i.e. long before it was popular!) I set up a treadmill with a computer in the room next to my office: > The biomechanics weren’t too hard to work out. I found out that by putting a gel strip at the correct pivot point under my wrists (and putting the mouse on a platform) I can comfortably type while I’m walking. I typically use a 5% incline and go at 2 mph—and I’m at least fit enough that I don’t think anyone can tell I’m walking while I’m talking in a meeting. (And, yes, I try to get potentially frustrating meetings scheduled during my walking time, so if I do in fact get frustrated I can just “walk it off” by making the treadmill go a little faster.)
dementik 6y ago
I have used "walking desk" setup now for about a year. Treadmill is kind of special walking treadmill, speed ranges from 1-5 km/h (0.5km/h steps). I normally walk about 5-6km per day while working. Mostly speed is 1 or 1.5km/h. Only downside is that when having video meeting, my head is bouncing while walking. Usually leads the conversation on treadmill.

emerongi 6y ago

Same experience. I like to rotate between 2 chairs, sometimes standing up, sometimes laying down. I still have mild back pain sometimes, but it's way better than what it used to be. I used to barely be able to sleep through it. If you are suffering from back pain caused by sitting and have trouble sleeping, I used this video [1] to relieve the pain for a while. It helped so much that after 2-3 weeks of doing it every day 2-3 times, I was able to sleep normally again. I also slept on the ground for a while since my mattress was too soft. I now own a very firm mattress. [1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO3racIlTcg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CO3racIlTcg

cardiffspaceman 6y ago

I have often thought about how driving for hours in a bucket seat, at least in the cars I've owned, has never been a struggle. The only thing that comes out wrong is I don't always hydrate, and that makes me a zombie (which is now a solved problem for me). So that leads to the thought that maybe, have the water supply for the hydroflask at a distance from the desk, so you have to get out of the chair to refill.

Wistar 6y ago
Back in 2008, BMW introduced an "active" anti-fatigue feature in their X6 that subtly and continuously changed the contour of the seat. I tried it on a long drive, and it is barely perceptible. If I didn't know I had turned it on, I'm not sure I would have noticed it was on.
- ad404b8a372f2b9 6y ago
  Some medical beds have a similar feature where the mattress will inflate/deflate in different areas to best match the patient's weight distribution. They'll also inflate/deflate on a cycle. Supposedly it's good for patients that stay in bed for long periods without moving as it improves circulation, reduces back pain and prevents bed sores.
- wojciii 6y ago
  I would pay for a chair with this tech. I have back problems which go away when I exercise and some pain when sitting still caused by an accident a few years ago.
- zwayhowder 6y ago
  I have an Airhawk cushion on my motorcycle and one one of the things I find best about it is everytime I stopped for petrol I'd let a little air out, or add a little air. It took 10s and gave me a different riding position for the next few hours. I can spend a lot longer in the saddle with it than without. (Speaking of saddles, I plan on trying it next time I go horse riding too, though I don't know what my queue will be for adjusting the volume of air).

ende 6y ago

So what you're saying is we need to invent the gyro-desk!

danudey 6y ago
so basically just a desk that constantly moves around? I suppose if you want to be 100% ergonomically friendly it should also just leave the room and go for a walk. If you want to keep working, you need to come along!
- coldtea 6y ago
  >>So what you're saying is we need to invent the gyro-desk! >so basically just a desk that constantly moves around? No, a desk that has a gyro grill attached.

bduerst 6y ago

We used to joke that smokers have great eyes because they take regular screen breaks to go outside and stare at the horizon.

zwayhowder 6y ago
Anecdotaly I didn't get proscribed reading glasses until a year or two after I quite smoking... Seriously though, one thing I did find was when I quit smoking my ability to solve complex problems at work went down for a while. I was no longer taking a forced 10 minute break every 60-90 minutes that let my brain reset. (Or explaining my problem out loud to another filthy smoker skulking around the back of the building :D ) Fortunately for me it was about the same time that the Pomodoro technique was featured on Lifehacker and I implemented a similar system to replace the regular nicotine craving induced breaks.
- plutonic 6y ago
  Nicotine is also an acetylcholinergic stimulant, meaning it aids in the quickness of thought [0]. By removing this from your stack you probably depressed your acetylcholine for a while, making you less able to think clearly. It might also be the lack of breaks too, but who knows. [0]: https://doi.org/10.1093/ntr/nty134 https://doi.org/10.1093/ntr/nty134
runarberg 6y ago
My old office had a dart board in the lounge. I think it was quite ingenious in that it forced the workers to focus their eyes differently from their screen time whenever they took a dart break.
- timeinput 6y ago
  In some parts of the world cigarettes are called darts. I snickered reading your reply because of it.

bee_rider 6y ago

I was hoping that augmented reality headsets would let me code while walking around outside, but it doesn't seem to have come about yet.

koonsolo 6y ago

Buy a standing desk and put a threadmill underneath. I have an electric standing desk from ikea, and bought a walking pad (movable and foldable) for underneath. I was scared that walking would make it too hard to read code, but it actually works really well. I would recommend it to everybody. Mostly I walk about 30 min to an hour in the afternoon. The rest I sit.

dkersten 6y ago

A physiotherapist once said to me that sitting with bad posture isn't even bad for you... as long as you don't stay in the same position too long. So the problem isn't sitting, standing or lying down, its doing those for too long. I suppose probably due to not moving, as you said.

longtom 6y ago
A hunched sitting posture and little physical activity does likely impair the metabolism though. The human metabolism has adapted for things to be upright and moving all the time, not for sitting absolutely still with compression forces acting upon the abdominal intestines by being hunched over for hours at a time. https://medium.com/@truppr/long-sitting-how-it-affects-your-health-productivity-and-cuts-lifespan-6e1a2000b0bf https://medium.com/@truppr/long-sitting-how-it-affects-your-...
kortex 6y ago
Oh good, my incessant squirming, leg-bouncing and position-shifting has some benefits!
runarberg 6y ago
I find my self working more and more sitting on the floor with my legs crossed on a floor pillow and the laptop on top of a shin high living room table. My legs can only take this for about half an hour before I start feeling the lack of blood flow, so I’m forced to change positions, stand up and rest for a little, or move to a desk or to the sofa. Even in the sofa I work sitting with my legs crossed up in the sofa for the same reason. I find this forces me to change my position quite frequently and never work for too long at a time without moving at least a little.

ghaff 6y ago

I'm lucky enough to be able to move around my house a lot and I get up pretty frequently. I actually have a pretty well-equipped office with keyboard tray, dual monitors, and HM chair. But I actually work a fair bit in a nice sunny room with a fairly cheap but comfortable Ikea chair that leans back and a foot rest. I work in that with my laptop just on my lap if I don't need a bunch of screen real estate.

burnte 6y ago

> IME it's not sitting or standing or lying down that's injurious, it's not moving. My pain to a large extent went away when I stopped staying so still. Now I change my posture on the regular, from leaning against the backrest to sitting away from it to taking little breaks to pace around a bit. I'm a big guy, 6'4", and fidgety. Being tall, I learned early on good posture is crucial for a pain free back, as is strong back muscles. Between that and being always moving, I don't deal with a fraction of the body issues a lot of office workers seem to. The worst is long flights, because getting up and walking around at least once an hour is something I don't even have to think about, so planes aren't great for that. On planes I understand why people want comfort at their desk.

ornel 6y ago

I do lots of work in my hammock -- I can shift to many different positions, including putting my feet down and gently pushing side to side. Laptop only, but hopefully eventually with VR

sriku 6y ago

The body is complex. Try not to box its functioning into simplistic principles like "it's not moving". Zen practice, for example, involves sitting as still as you can for 25 mins at a stretch, followed by a meditation walk for a few minutes and then resuming. A retreat (called "sesshin") will typically involve such sitting for about 8-9 hours a day, for 4 days to a week. Monks have been doing this for a couple of millennia at the very least if you consider only Buddhism. In other traditions, monks may sit continuously for far longer than the 25 mins characteristic of current traditions. No longitudinal study of postures can top that record. The sitting posture matters because the spine is kept erect naturally, like a vertical pendulum. Once you get used to it, it is a pretty relaxed posture that feels quite sustainable .. compared to sitting in any chair.

yokto 6y ago

Yes! It's for same kind of reasons that I regularly rotate between 2-3 mice that are as different as possible (size, trackball, etc.).

dmje 6y ago

Totaly agree with this analysis. I've got a Furna motorised standing desk, a wobble board and a kneeling stool. Apart from looking like a middle-class numpty in some kind of hellhole physio studio, it's actually pretty great having lots of options. I've also taken to being fairly strict with a Pomodoro routine. 25 minutes focused (strictly locking down email!) work, 5 minutes when I get up and have a wander around the house. I think my attention is better, my eyes get a chance to rest, less aches. The other thing I did was to start using mouse left-handed. I got terrible RSI with my right (I'm naturally right-handed) and actually although I'm slower with my left it's no bad thing - my movement is more considered, less jerky, and I think has a lower impact on anything likely to trigger RSI. So yeh, I think I'm ok for a death-trap lying down desk, thanks anyway...