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Think about this scenario for a minute: You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a differen
by W-Stool 6y ago
Think about this scenario for a minute:
You are top designer at an F1 team. You've got an idea that will (maybe) make the car go faster. Say it is a different profile rear wing. So you get the lads to build one up (you have your own carbon fibre maufacturing facility on site) and you mount it on the current car and then arrange for the team to rent (say) Brands Hatch for the day, run the new wing, compare sector times, get feedback from the driver, etc - something any technical person would expect to do.
Problem: this is completely against the rules. Can't just take the car out to the track and run it between races when you want. That's why these insane chassis dynos exist, everything is a simulation now, even wind tunnel time and the number of CPUs in your CFD cluster are being regulated. This is all in the name of reducing expenses of course, but it has the opposite effect.
I saw my first F1 race in 1979, it was really something. The sport I see now has almost nothing to do with those times - in some good ways (safety!) but mostly bad (see above).
I'm out.
- ip26 6y agoThis is all in the name of reducing expenses of course, but it has the opposite effect. I always thought it was more like, Ferrari will always spend gobs of money and a small player can only spend a tenth as much- the amount of money spent will not change- but how can we narrow the gap between the high budget & low budget teams, such that a really awesome low budget team has a chance of catching a high budget team napping.
- ll931110 6y agoThat is precisely the reason budget cap will come into effect from 2021.
- nradov 6y agoFerrari is currently #6 out of 10 teams so whatever they're spending it's not working. https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2020/team.html https://www.formula1.com/en/results.html/2020/team.html
- manojlds 6y agoFor those who are not following - Ferrari "cheated" last year with their engine and have a secret "agreement" with FIA to cut out thr cheat which also meant apparently rebuilding a lot of the PU. They should be back on pace in 2022.
- gcatalfamo 6y agoBut then Mercedes cheated THIS year and nothing happened. Ferrari simply lost the politics game.
- remus 6y agoHow so? Do you mean there toe in steering setup? If so I don't think that's really cheating as it's a loophole in the rules rather than a contravention of the rules.
- tempestn 6y agoYeah, and exploiting loopholes in the rules is as old as F1. You follow them to the letter, gain an advantage, hopefully win a championship, and then the FIA specifically bans what you did for future years.
- VBprogrammer 6y agoFor me this is F1. If someone wants to create a competing racing class with standardised chassis and engines then that's fine too. But it isn't F1.
- manojlds 6y agoIf you are talking of DAS - they spoke with FIA through development process and was ok'ed. And DAS is made illegal from next year. Are you saying Ferrari worked with FIA for their sensor cheat last year as well? BTW, none of us on the outside even know what they even cheated on and what the agreement is etc. The theory is that FIA knows there was cheating with the sensors but doesn't have the necessary evidence to prove it.
- manojlds 6y agoBudget cap kicks in next year heading into new regs for 2022. Ferrari and Merc spend $500m approx. Budget cap is $175m with exceptions like driver salary, top leaders salary, PU.
- stainforth 6y agoWow. What are the outlays of other sports teams for a season? NFL, in what, mostly player salaries?
- swarnie_ 6y agoAnd this has resulted in teams spending silly money this year and last to "beat" the new caps. New wind tunnels, new factories, expensive software projects. All ploughed ahead this year so they don't have to go on the books after 2022.
- NoOneNew 6y agoThis video highlights some of what you're talking about: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIjQC08qKk https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rnIjQC08qKk Little out of the box innovations that are pretty cool and then banned. The mass dampener in the video is really what gets to me. FIA just loves to ban random things. Like, I get some forced regulations according to safety. The Halos, for example, I get that they must be to a specific standard. But a simple mechanical device that helps keep the car stable, gripping the road? Ban that? We're not talking about group B rally level of innovation. Kind of feels like the FIA adopted the principle, "If it's fun and/or interesting, ban it." Fresh blood is needed too.
- hvidgaard 6y agoFrom a safety point of view, the tuned mass damper was a nightmare. A small heavy object that must move freely in the car is hard to secure if a crash happens, and they do happen at very high speeds every single year. It's the same story with the skirts - they make the cars produce very efficient downforce, except when they don't work for whatever reason and the car continues in the state of motion is was in, almost always into a barrier.
- Someone 6y agoInto a barrier is the good outcome for loss of downforce. The car may make a backward somersault and fly over a barrier or land on top of another car.
- hvidgaard 6y agoLoss of downforce does not necessarily mean it goes tumbling. Skits basically means it's easier to create the suction that provide the downforce. Loss of that means it lacks the grip it would otherwise have, not that air gets under the car in a way that send it flying. The front wing and rear wing would still produce some downforce that keeps with the wheels on the ground.
- Someone 6y ago
- justin66 6y ago> This is all in the name of reducing expenses of course, but it has the opposite effect. You might not like it, but it certainly does reduce expenses.
- nradov 6y agoI am a casual motorsports fan. F1 and Nascar have become boring with cookie-cutter cars. Would love to see a new racing series that allowed real innovation again. Just impose a team budget cap and some basic rules for track safety (no active aerodynamics, fuel load limits, etc). Otherwise do whatever you like whether it's a 16 cylinder engine or all-wheel drive or a giant wing or something totally nuts.
- manojlds 6y agoMercedes this year has a steering wheel that moves vertically to change the angle of the front wheels. RedBull, Ferrari and Mercedes have different philosophies in their aero, car length, front wing etc. The cars are far from cookie cutter, and 2022 regs already show different ways people could design the car. That's before we see how the teams do it. It's exciting times ahead for F1 in the shirt term. The 2026 engine reg is what matters.
- kortilla 6y agoOh wow, changing the angle of the front wheels. It’s gripping innovation like that which really catches the imagination and speaks to the disruptive innovation at play here. Perhaps next year we’ll see a slightly lighter shade of black in the paint if they go really wild.
- hvidgaard 6y agoIt is crazy innovative. Not to mention Mercedes rear suspension geometry - but they don't provide a visual spectacle, just raw speed. If we removed the design restrictions, we'd see fairly similar cars anyway.
- deleted 6y ago[deleted]
- snemvalts 6y ago"real innovation" - to you it's visual changes? there's massive amounts of developments in F1, but you don't see it. sounds like you're looking for some unregulated junkyard challenge, where everybody shows up with something they welded together in their garage. and when there are no regulations, somebody shows up with astronomical amounts of money, they start winning every time, the sport becomes boring, people stop losing interest, sponsors pull out, sport dies down.
- jocker12 6y ago"but it has the opposite effect." - so you think the reduction of engine/power units usage from 2 to 3 per race to 3 per season had an opposite cost effect? Or limitation of tire sets that could be used over a race weekend had an opposite cost effect? Or do you want to remove the regulations and have only 4 or 6 cars (Mercedes, Ferrari and possible McLaren) racing for 21 races instead of 20 to 22 cars for the same amount of races every season?
- TylerE 6y agoIn a way, yes. Racing slicks are cheap in comparison to the kind of budgets we’re talking about here - and that cost per unit would go down if they were making and using more. Engineering out the last infinitesimal bit of rain out of something is expensive. F1 was much more interesting when things like the Tyrell P34 were allowed to exist
- ksec 6y ago>F1 was much more interesting Yes, and when they were pushing for absolute speed. With a similar 1.6L engine being used in 2022, I could only hope there are areas left for more innovation in the Engine.
- taffronaut 6y agoAbsolutely agree. My first job out of college was working for a company that was a minor sponsor of the Tyrell P34. We briefly had one of the cars in reception.
- DC-3 6y agoThis is unrelated to the OP because Honda exclusively supply engines and do not have a works Grand Prix team. When the sport was awash with tobacco money about 15 years ago, the big teams all had an entire testing team, completely divorced from their race team, which would spend most days of the year simply hammering around the racetracks of Europe, at astronomical expense. Such things are illegal now because if they were not the sport would be dead within five years.
- erichocean 6y ago> Such things are illegal now because if they were not the sport would be dead within five years. It's already dead. Might as well have the testing.
- DC-3 6y agoGrand Prix racing is not dead. Don't hyperbolise.
- mcv 6y agoWell then, how would it be dead in 5 years? That sounds every bit as hyperbolic.
- Milner08 6y agoBecause only a small set of teams would be able to afford the testing, and you'd end up with a tiny starting grid with only a few cars. It'd be crap.
- oarsinsync 6y agohttps://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_Grand_Prix_winners#Most_wins_per_season https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Formula_One_Grand_Prix... It's not been interesting for a while. There may be > 10 cars, but there's very few that actually make it to a win, and there's been only one that's mattered each year for almost a decade.
- jjav 6y ago> Can't just take the car out to the track and run it between races when you want. Yes, this has completely ruined the sport. My life used to revolved around F1 starting from the late 80s (did not miss a single race in 25 years), but two years ago I gave up and have not watched the past two seasons. With rules preventing engine and car development once Mercedes locked in the advantage, it's game over. Sure F1 has had plenty of dominant teams for short time windows but it was engineering-driven and could (and was) overcome by better engineering by other teams. Now that the advantage is locked in by the rules, there is no hope. To me there's no entertainment value whatsoever in watching Mercedes lap a second faster than everyone year after year. Let's watch some paint dry instead.
- secondcoming 6y agoThere are karting videos on youtube and that's actually far more entertaining than modern F1