5 ms·

This discussion reminds me of a short story, Liking What You See: A Documentary by Ted Chiang (same guy who wrote the plot of the movie Arrival). There might be

by rland 6y ago

This discussion reminds me of a short story, Liking What You See: A Documentary by Ted Chiang (same guy who wrote the plot of the movie Arrival). There might be a pdf floating around on the internet, it's a 20 min read. Basically, it's about a reversible procedure called "calli" that turns off the neurological response to symmetry, smoothness, and "aesthetic" of a human face. So someone with the procedure can recognize different faces, but they don't feel any better about a pretty face than an ugly one. The story follows a girl who had calli done as a young child, and then decided to go to college with it turned off. When she's there, there's a push on campus to mandate the procedure, to combat "lookism." The story is written like a documentary film, so it has little snippets of interviews, news articles, etc. about the debate. The range of emotions we get from looking at other people's faces is intrinsically worth saving. But, people get a huge advantage from being good-looking. It's effectively discrimination to consider people who are good looking more trustworthy, nicer, etc, yet all of us do -- it's hard wired. The world is not really fair to someone with a bad looking face. These apps aren't calli but they do mediate how we see the world, ourselves, and others to a huge degree. I don't envy any middle school girl who has to navigate this landscape. Anyway, I highly recommend the story, it was such an interesting way of looking at the issue.

ColanR 6y ago
> there's a push on campus to mandate the procedure, to combat "lookism." That sounds incredibly dystopian.
- Aeolun 6y ago
  Not once everyone has it done automatically and society accepts it. It’ll be something like a vaccine against the measles.
- monadic2 6y ago
  Given that it's a work of fiction, it's literally dystopian!
- rland 6y ago
  Just to play devil's advocate: I mean, yes, this hypothetical procedure does sound dystopian on its face (haha). But then again, imagine if you just judged people by how nice they actually were, not by what their face looked like? Imagine if you were evaluated by the merits of your mind, of you, not the 'flawed' representation of you (your face) given to you by your DNA? I've been helped enormously in almost every area of my life by the way I look and how I'm able to present myself physically. Much of that is because of my DNA -- something I didn't work for or ask for. It was given to me for free. Likewise, others are deprived through no fault of their own. Of course, that's the way it is. I like being attractive and having attractive friends and romantic partners. But what if it didn't matter? Would my life be richer?
  - Infinitesimus 6y ago
    > Imagine if you were evaluated by the merits of your mind, of you, not the 'flawed' representation of you (your face) given to you by your DNA? Do you believe that accidents of genes (and actions taken by the mother at times) affect brain development? If so, aren't we just moving the problem to a different body part ? (keeping the devil's advocate train going )
    - esperent 6y ago
      It's a good train to keep going, and the end of the line will be the realisation that allowing some people to receive better treatment for any reason, birth, wealth, looks, intelligence, or anything else, is inherantly unfair. I hope that some day in the future we'll look back on the way poor people are treated now with the same horror we have today if we hear a black or gay person was refused healthcare or another service.
      - kleer001 6y ago
        Does "better treatment" include higher wages for skills demonstrated? Or are you talking, like, equal application of law? That what I'd assume.
        6y ago
- whytaka 6y ago
  Consider how dystopian it is that there are classes of people nigh-instantly dismissed because of their appearance. That's plenty dystopian, no?
  - xwdv 6y ago
    No, that’s the natural way the world works, natural selection.
  - ColanR 6y ago
    What's even more dystopian is mandated, invasive, mind-altering surgery. As far as 'my body, my choice' goes, there's little difference between that and the forced sterilization China used to mandate.
scubbo 6y ago
> The range of emotions we get from looking at other people's faces is intrinsically worth saving. Citation needed? It's almost-certainly net-enjoyable - but, when you go on to acknowledge that the mere fact of those emotions leads to discrimination against some people, how do you justify this statement other than "those emotions are natural"? To be clear, I am _not_ saying that I would support mandatory calli - forcibly changing someone's neurological responses is an astonishingly dangerous precedent to set; as another commenter points out, that would be terribly dystopian - but I don't think I can agree with your specific statement. Regardless - this sounds like a fascinating story, I'll have a look - thanks!
- appletrotter 6y ago
  No citation needed
rememberlenny 6y ago
Link: https://cdn.inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net/e82a158c-69b8-4c00-b7cb-57059a82e732/poliscifi-reading-Chiang-Liking%20What%20You%20See.pdf?token=eyJhbGciOiJIUzUxMiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCIsImtpZCI6ImNkbiJ9.eyJyZXNvdXJjZSI6Ii9lODJhMTU4Yy02OWI4LTRjMDAtYjdjYi01NzA1OWE4MmU3MzIvcG9saXNjaWZpLXJlYWRpbmctQ2hpYW5nLUxpa2luZyUyMFdoYXQlMjBZb3UlMjBTZWUucGRmIiwidGVuYW50IjoiY2FudmFzIiwidXNlcl9pZCI6bnVsbCwiaWF0IjoxNjAxODQxMDM2LCJleHAiOjE2MDE5Mjc0MzZ9.Nzq5XEOma_f_r9AW-_WfeWv-O3y4q3iAAkNMdn8cJAhBPZO-rNQMoNybL_fDkXAan1Pta9x64fnoVCBTB4VCqQ&download=1&content_type=application%2Fpdf https://cdn.inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net/e82a158c-69b8-...
mlindner 6y ago
> yet all of us do -- it's hard wired. It's important to note that we're hard wired because it was evolutionary beneficial to "push out" people who look bad/incorrect/not-normal. If you have a gene that mutates then it's possible you could have other mutations that make you not suitable reproductively so it became ingrained to avoid those who look bad to get genes that would produce more fit offspring.
- fortran77 6y ago
  Also I thought that in 2020 it is becoming more generally recognizes that people have a right to an “affectional” preference. It should be OK no to be attracted to someone.
sriku 6y ago
"calliagnosia" or "the inability to perceive prettiness". Ted Chiang's works are mind-blowing and I recommend this. It is a great piece on giving different perspectives on this issue from different parties' perspectives .. like journalism embedded in sci-fi. As for the article itself, I find myself gravitating towards not trusting Google's (or such org's) motives in this. After all, if such a touchup feature were activated by default, it would skew Google's face dataset away from real faces and embed a notion of "Calli" in their face models.

by rland 6y ago

ColanR 6y ago

> there's a push on campus to mandate the procedure, to combat "lookism." That sounds incredibly dystopian.

Aeolun 6y ago
Not once everyone has it done automatically and society accepts it. It’ll be something like a vaccine against the measles.
monadic2 6y ago
Given that it's a work of fiction, it's literally dystopian!
rland 6y ago
Just to play devil's advocate: I mean, yes, this hypothetical procedure does sound dystopian on its face (haha). But then again, imagine if you just judged people by how nice they actually were, not by what their face looked like? Imagine if you were evaluated by the merits of your mind, of you, not the 'flawed' representation of you (your face) given to you by your DNA? I've been helped enormously in almost every area of my life by the way I look and how I'm able to present myself physically. Much of that is because of my DNA -- something I didn't work for or ask for. It was given to me for free. Likewise, others are deprived through no fault of their own. Of course, that's the way it is. I like being attractive and having attractive friends and romantic partners. But what if it didn't matter? Would my life be richer?
- Infinitesimus 6y ago
  > Imagine if you were evaluated by the merits of your mind, of you, not the 'flawed' representation of you (your face) given to you by your DNA? Do you believe that accidents of genes (and actions taken by the mother at times) affect brain development? If so, aren't we just moving the problem to a different body part ? (keeping the devil's advocate train going )
  - esperent 6y ago
    It's a good train to keep going, and the end of the line will be the realisation that allowing some people to receive better treatment for any reason, birth, wealth, looks, intelligence, or anything else, is inherantly unfair. I hope that some day in the future we'll look back on the way poor people are treated now with the same horror we have today if we hear a black or gay person was refused healthcare or another service.
    - kleer001 6y ago
      Does "better treatment" include higher wages for skills demonstrated? Or are you talking, like, equal application of law? That what I'd assume.
      - 6y ago
whytaka 6y ago
Consider how dystopian it is that there are classes of people nigh-instantly dismissed because of their appearance. That's plenty dystopian, no?
- xwdv 6y ago
  No, that’s the natural way the world works, natural selection.
- ColanR 6y ago
  What's even more dystopian is mandated, invasive, mind-altering surgery. As far as 'my body, my choice' goes, there's little difference between that and the forced sterilization China used to mandate.

scubbo 6y ago

> The range of emotions we get from looking at other people's faces is intrinsically worth saving. Citation needed? It's almost-certainly net-enjoyable - but, when you go on to acknowledge that the mere fact of those emotions leads to discrimination against some people, how do you justify this statement other than "those emotions are natural"? To be clear, I am _not_ saying that I would support mandatory calli - forcibly changing someone's neurological responses is an astonishingly dangerous precedent to set; as another commenter points out, that would be terribly dystopian - but I don't think I can agree with your specific statement. Regardless - this sounds like a fascinating story, I'll have a look - thanks!

appletrotter 6y ago
No citation needed

rememberlenny 6y ago

Link: https://cdn.inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net/e82a158c-69b8-4c00-b7cb-57059a82e732/poliscifi-reading-Chiang-Liking%20What%20You%20See.pdf?token=eyJhbGciOiJIUzUxMiIsInR5cCI6IkpXVCIsImtpZCI6ImNkbiJ9.eyJyZXNvdXJjZSI6Ii9lODJhMTU4Yy02OWI4LTRjMDAtYjdjYi01NzA1OWE4MmU3MzIvcG9saXNjaWZpLXJlYWRpbmctQ2hpYW5nLUxpa2luZyUyMFdoYXQlMjBZb3UlMjBTZWUucGRmIiwidGVuYW50IjoiY2FudmFzIiwidXNlcl9pZCI6bnVsbCwiaWF0IjoxNjAxODQxMDM2LCJleHAiOjE2MDE5Mjc0MzZ9.Nzq5XEOma_f_r9AW-_WfeWv-O3y4q3iAAkNMdn8cJAhBPZO-rNQMoNybL_fDkXAan1Pta9x64fnoVCBTB4VCqQ&download=1&content_type=application%2Fpdf https://cdn.inst-fs-iad-prod.inscloudgate.net/e82a158c-69b8-...

mlindner 6y ago

> yet all of us do -- it's hard wired. It's important to note that we're hard wired because it was evolutionary beneficial to "push out" people who look bad/incorrect/not-normal. If you have a gene that mutates then it's possible you could have other mutations that make you not suitable reproductively so it became ingrained to avoid those who look bad to get genes that would produce more fit offspring.

fortran77 6y ago
Also I thought that in 2020 it is becoming more generally recognizes that people have a right to an “affectional” preference. It should be OK no to be attracted to someone.

sriku 6y ago

"calliagnosia" or "the inability to perceive prettiness". Ted Chiang's works are mind-blowing and I recommend this. It is a great piece on giving different perspectives on this issue from different parties' perspectives .. like journalism embedded in sci-fi. As for the article itself, I find myself gravitating towards not trusting Google's (or such org's) motives in this. After all, if such a touchup feature were activated by default, it would skew Google's face dataset away from real faces and embed a notion of "Calli" in their face models.