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I personally don’t care about affirmative action, but if you truly care, shouldn’t you be focused on income diversity over skin diversity? We know a lot of very

I personally don’t care about affirmative action, but if you truly care, shouldn’t you be focused on income diversity over skin diversity? We know a lot of very well-off minorities (my wife for starters) and advantaging their children because of skin color doesn’t make any sense to me. An upper middle class black family and an upper middle class white family have way, WAY more in common then they do with a poor family of any race.

HideousKojima 6y ago
You're assuming that those pushing for affirmative action do truly care about helping disadvantaged people. Attempts have been made to do affirmative action by income, but were halted because they were helping poor southeast Asians and eastern Europeans, not Blacks and Hispanics. Affirmative action is pretty nakedly a system of racial spoils.
- deleted 6y ago
  [deleted]
SpicyLemonZest 6y ago
The term "affirmative action" is generally used only to refer to the race bits. Every organization I'm familiar with that uses affirmative action also has outreach programs for poor people, generally called "nontraditional backgrounds" in business and "underserved communities" in academia.
Gimpei 6y ago
Depends what you see as the point of affirmative action. One of the primary benefits so far as I see it is that it helps make the country's ruling class more reflective of the underlying population. There's a lot of research that increasing representation of disadvantaged groups improves their outcomes. 1. Gender: https://economics.mit.edu/files/792 https://economics.mit.edu/files/792 2. Caste: https://www.uh.edu/~achin/research/w16509.pdf https://www.uh.edu/~achin/research/w16509.pdf 3. Policing: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-07-01/how-to-make-a-police-force-more-diverse https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-07-01/how-to...
- tupputuppu 6y ago
  I'm not sure if I understand you: isn't it a truism to say increasing opportunities for a group increase their outcomes? Maybe we shouldn't expect similar outcomes from different groups and shouldn't focus on groups at all?
rayiner 6y ago
They're quite distinct problems. Study after study shows that Black boys have much worse outcomes than white boys even when comparing families that have similar incomes: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-c.... White boys whose parents have an income at the 90th percentile (compared to all households) will statistically end up around the 70th percentile (regression to the mean). A black boy raised to parents who have a 90th percentile income will end up at the 55th percentile. There is something unique about the economic status of Black Americans, especially Black boys. The income gap between Black and whites hasn't narrowed at all since the end of Jim Crow in the 1960s. Gaps for other groups have disappeared or are in the process of disappearing-even groups, such as Hispanics, that typically come into the country near the bottom of the economic ladder. > The research makes clear that there is something unique about the obstacles black males face. The gap between Hispanics and whites is narrower, and their incomes will converge within a couple of generations if mobility stays the same. Asian-Americans earn more than whites raised at the same income level, or about the same when first-generation immigrants are excluded. Only Native Americans have an income gap comparable to African-Americans. But the disparities are widest for black boys.
- throwaway33443 6y ago
  > The research makes clear that there is something unique about the obstacles black males face. The gap between Hispanics and whites is narrower, and their incomes will converge within a couple of generations if mobility stays the same. Asian-Americans earn more than whites raised at the same income level, or about the same when first-generation immigrants are excluded. Only Native Americans have an income gap comparable to African-Americans. But the disparities are widest for black boys. Percent of children in single-parent families by race in the United States: African American: 65% Native American: 53% Hispanic: 41% White: 24% Asian: 15% https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race#detailed/1/any/false/37,871,870,573,869,36,868,867,133,38/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/432,431 https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in...
kyrieeschaton 6y ago
"Skin diversity", ie racial groups, form political constituencies. In America, income categories generally do not except for at the extreme ends.

HideousKojima 6y ago

You're assuming that those pushing for affirmative action do truly care about helping disadvantaged people. Attempts have been made to do affirmative action by income, but were halted because they were helping poor southeast Asians and eastern Europeans, not Blacks and Hispanics. Affirmative action is pretty nakedly a system of racial spoils.

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]

SpicyLemonZest 6y ago

The term "affirmative action" is generally used only to refer to the race bits. Every organization I'm familiar with that uses affirmative action also has outreach programs for poor people, generally called "nontraditional backgrounds" in business and "underserved communities" in academia.

Gimpei 6y ago

Depends what you see as the point of affirmative action. One of the primary benefits so far as I see it is that it helps make the country's ruling class more reflective of the underlying population. There's a lot of research that increasing representation of disadvantaged groups improves their outcomes. 1. Gender: https://economics.mit.edu/files/792 https://economics.mit.edu/files/792 2. Caste: https://www.uh.edu/~achin/research/w16509.pdf https://www.uh.edu/~achin/research/w16509.pdf 3. Policing: https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-07-01/how-to-make-a-police-force-more-diverse https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2020-07-01/how-to...

tupputuppu 6y ago
I'm not sure if I understand you: isn't it a truism to say increasing opportunities for a group increase their outcomes? Maybe we shouldn't expect similar outcomes from different groups and shouldn't focus on groups at all?

rayiner 6y ago

They're quite distinct problems. Study after study shows that Black boys have much worse outcomes than white boys even when comparing families that have similar incomes: https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-class-white-and-black-men.html https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/03/19/upshot/race-c.... White boys whose parents have an income at the 90th percentile (compared to all households) will statistically end up around the 70th percentile (regression to the mean). A black boy raised to parents who have a 90th percentile income will end up at the 55th percentile. There is something unique about the economic status of Black Americans, especially Black boys. The income gap between Black and whites hasn't narrowed at all since the end of Jim Crow in the 1960s. Gaps for other groups have disappeared or are in the process of disappearing-even groups, such as Hispanics, that typically come into the country near the bottom of the economic ladder. > The research makes clear that there is something unique about the obstacles black males face. The gap between Hispanics and whites is narrower, and their incomes will converge within a couple of generations if mobility stays the same. Asian-Americans earn more than whites raised at the same income level, or about the same when first-generation immigrants are excluded. Only Native Americans have an income gap comparable to African-Americans. But the disparities are widest for black boys.

throwaway33443 6y ago
> The research makes clear that there is something unique about the obstacles black males face. The gap between Hispanics and whites is narrower, and their incomes will converge within a couple of generations if mobility stays the same. Asian-Americans earn more than whites raised at the same income level, or about the same when first-generation immigrants are excluded. Only Native Americans have an income gap comparable to African-Americans. But the disparities are widest for black boys. Percent of children in single-parent families by race in the United States: African American: 65% Native American: 53% Hispanic: 41% White: 24% Asian: 15% https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in-single-parent-families-by-race#detailed/1/any/false/37,871,870,573,869,36,868,867,133,38/10,11,9,12,1,185,13/432,431 https://datacenter.kidscount.org/data/tables/107-children-in...

kyrieeschaton 6y ago

"Skin diversity", ie racial groups, form political constituencies. In America, income categories generally do not except for at the extreme ends.