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Keeping logs seems like a high bar for a non expert with a commodity home ap/router. A $US40 WRT54G only has 4mb of flash, for example. Are they expecting lay p

Keeping logs seems like a high bar for a non expert with a commodity home ap/router. A $US40 WRT54G only has 4mb of flash, for example. Are they expecting lay people to spend 10x that or more to set up an external log aggregation server with DPI and audit trail?

deleted 6y ago
[deleted]
kleiba 6y ago
If you're a lay person you have the option to hire someone. Let's not forget, we're talking about businesses here (bars), not individuals.
- cultus 6y ago
  Hiring an actual IT person to set it up would be a very difficult expense for many small businesses. Cafes usually operate on very tight margins. I just find this law completely ridiculous and an obvious result of hysteria. It is not a rational response to the very tiny risk of the dastardly and scary terrorists using free wifi.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    As all businesses require it the chances that ISPs don't offer a service that includes that feature seems extraordinarily low. Seems like knowingly selling a service that wasn't capable of logging, under a legislative background that requires it, would also likely be unlawful.
  - kleiba 6y ago
    No-one is forcing you to offer free wifi. Like with any business decision, you need to weigh the cost of the investment versus the expected return.
R0b0t1 6y ago
Apparently. Laws being divorced from reality isn't a new thing.
laurent92 6y ago
Yes. Or rather, subscribe to commercial providers who will log contents. Along with the other shopowner’s joys (mandatory yearly electricity inspection €200 even if you didn’t change anything; €140 aircon inspection; fire inspection; etc.)
- clinta 6y ago
  In a decade there will be threads wondering why only big chain restraints are left. And they'll blame capitalism and cry for more regulation never realizing how their regulations are what made it impossible for independent shop owners to compete.
- wlll 6y ago
  Neither of those prices you quoted seem particularly high for having someone turn up and do an inspection. Given that you're operating a public area, and things like aircon and electrics can be deadly when failing or operated incorrectly it doesn't seem too onerous a requirement. If you're a landlord in the UK (I'm not) you need a current gas safety certificate if you've got gas appliances (most houses do, eg heating) and plumbers cost a reasonable amount of money. It's just the cost of doing business.
  - aksss 6y ago
    It’s the aggregate cost of doing business that’s being criticized though, not the reasonable cost of one or two things in isolation. Like saying this new municipal bond will only cost homeowners the price of a latte a day. You can afford that, right? Yeah, but the thing is I don’t buy twenty lattes a day which may be what the current bond obligations add up to. Now you want to make it twenty-one. The aggregate cost is what’s crushing. It’s where we get the idiom of straws breaking camels’ backs.
    - wlll 6y ago
      I guess I don't see the scale of the issue. Yes, in aggregate the costs are higher than each individual charge, and that works out at some visible % of your revenue, but it seems like all the things we've mentioned so far are necessary (inspections and such, I don't know what a "municipal bond" is). I'd be genuiently interested in hearing people's ideas to lower those costs though, as I am sure many business owners might be. However, it seems like lowering the costs by allowing businesses to skip certain currently required things (at least of the ones mentioned) isn't going to work, as I said before, unmaintained air conditioning is dangerous (I know of at least one case where it tragically killed most of a family in a hotel, and it can make you generally sick https://patch.com/california/saratoga/dangers-badly-maintained-air-conditioners-0 https://patch.com/california/saratoga/dangers-badly-maintain...) and it doesn't take much to imagine how badly maintained electrics could be a problem. Given that we can't rely on some people to maintain these things (even if they are trying to do it right) without checking up on them, and because we don't know who those people are in advance means we need to check up on everyone. It seems to me that this is just the cost of doing business, and let's face it, lots of businesses are still going despite the costs involved. If you've got some examples of unecessary or silly things costs that governments impose on shops/cafes/businesses then I'm all ears but so far I've not heard any.
pyrale 6y ago
The law created a market, so there are 15€/month off-the-shelf solutions to this issue.
- josephcsible 6y ago
  You make it sound like that's cheap, but it's equivalent to having to replace the router every 3 months.
  - pyrale 6y ago
    I don't intend to make it sound cheap or expensive, I simply point out that people without the knowhow can access out of the box solutions if necessary. For comparison, the internet access itself is usually around 30€/month.
  - srtjstjsj 6y ago
    What til you hear how much these places spend on soap for mandatory cleanings.
- imhoguy 6y ago
  And then monthly or yearly fee for GDPR review/handling too. Don't forget handing over GDPR form to your customer together with latte. Europe becomes tough place to make any activity, not even talking about business.
  - pbhjpbhj 6y ago
    You could not sell your users data, then you don't need to collect it, then you barely need to worry about GDPR. You are allowed to sell coffee without invading your customer's privacy. Shocking I know /s.
    - OkGoDoIt 6y ago
      But you are required to collect user info for them to use WiFi, so that implies you also have to deal with related GDPR compliance hassle for that data

deleted 6y ago

[deleted]

kleiba 6y ago

If you're a lay person you have the option to hire someone. Let's not forget, we're talking about businesses here (bars), not individuals.

cultus 6y ago
Hiring an actual IT person to set it up would be a very difficult expense for many small businesses. Cafes usually operate on very tight margins. I just find this law completely ridiculous and an obvious result of hysteria. It is not a rational response to the very tiny risk of the dastardly and scary terrorists using free wifi.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  As all businesses require it the chances that ISPs don't offer a service that includes that feature seems extraordinarily low. Seems like knowingly selling a service that wasn't capable of logging, under a legislative background that requires it, would also likely be unlawful.
- kleiba 6y ago
  No-one is forcing you to offer free wifi. Like with any business decision, you need to weigh the cost of the investment versus the expected return.

R0b0t1 6y ago

Apparently. Laws being divorced from reality isn't a new thing.

laurent92 6y ago

Yes. Or rather, subscribe to commercial providers who will log contents. Along with the other shopowner’s joys (mandatory yearly electricity inspection €200 even if you didn’t change anything; €140 aircon inspection; fire inspection; etc.)

clinta 6y ago
In a decade there will be threads wondering why only big chain restraints are left. And they'll blame capitalism and cry for more regulation never realizing how their regulations are what made it impossible for independent shop owners to compete.
wlll 6y ago
Neither of those prices you quoted seem particularly high for having someone turn up and do an inspection. Given that you're operating a public area, and things like aircon and electrics can be deadly when failing or operated incorrectly it doesn't seem too onerous a requirement. If you're a landlord in the UK (I'm not) you need a current gas safety certificate if you've got gas appliances (most houses do, eg heating) and plumbers cost a reasonable amount of money. It's just the cost of doing business.
- aksss 6y ago
  It’s the aggregate cost of doing business that’s being criticized though, not the reasonable cost of one or two things in isolation. Like saying this new municipal bond will only cost homeowners the price of a latte a day. You can afford that, right? Yeah, but the thing is I don’t buy twenty lattes a day which may be what the current bond obligations add up to. Now you want to make it twenty-one. The aggregate cost is what’s crushing. It’s where we get the idiom of straws breaking camels’ backs.
  - wlll 6y ago
    I guess I don't see the scale of the issue. Yes, in aggregate the costs are higher than each individual charge, and that works out at some visible % of your revenue, but it seems like all the things we've mentioned so far are necessary (inspections and such, I don't know what a "municipal bond" is). I'd be genuiently interested in hearing people's ideas to lower those costs though, as I am sure many business owners might be. However, it seems like lowering the costs by allowing businesses to skip certain currently required things (at least of the ones mentioned) isn't going to work, as I said before, unmaintained air conditioning is dangerous (I know of at least one case where it tragically killed most of a family in a hotel, and it can make you generally sick https://patch.com/california/saratoga/dangers-badly-maintained-air-conditioners-0 https://patch.com/california/saratoga/dangers-badly-maintain...) and it doesn't take much to imagine how badly maintained electrics could be a problem. Given that we can't rely on some people to maintain these things (even if they are trying to do it right) without checking up on them, and because we don't know who those people are in advance means we need to check up on everyone. It seems to me that this is just the cost of doing business, and let's face it, lots of businesses are still going despite the costs involved. If you've got some examples of unecessary or silly things costs that governments impose on shops/cafes/businesses then I'm all ears but so far I've not heard any.

pyrale 6y ago

The law created a market, so there are 15€/month off-the-shelf solutions to this issue.

josephcsible 6y ago
You make it sound like that's cheap, but it's equivalent to having to replace the router every 3 months.
- pyrale 6y ago
  I don't intend to make it sound cheap or expensive, I simply point out that people without the knowhow can access out of the box solutions if necessary. For comparison, the internet access itself is usually around 30€/month.
- srtjstjsj 6y ago
  What til you hear how much these places spend on soap for mandatory cleanings.
imhoguy 6y ago
And then monthly or yearly fee for GDPR review/handling too. Don't forget handing over GDPR form to your customer together with latte. Europe becomes tough place to make any activity, not even talking about business.
- pbhjpbhj 6y ago
  You could not sell your users data, then you don't need to collect it, then you barely need to worry about GDPR. You are allowed to sell coffee without invading your customer's privacy. Shocking I know /s.
  - OkGoDoIt 6y ago
    But you are required to collect user info for them to use WiFi, so that implies you also have to deal with related GDPR compliance hassle for that data