6 ms·

If you run a forum and a user is constantly making up lies, harassing other users, and spamming misinformation then I don't think banning them is "free speech"

If you run a forum and a user is constantly making up lies, harassing other users, and spamming misinformation then I don't think banning them is "free speech" issue. t_D should have been banned long before it eventually was imo. It actively spread misinformation and hate and made the website worse for other users. And a question for you: You say that Reddit is not in favor of free speech because it banned subs like t_D, but t_D and similar subs were banned anyone who questioned the narrative that was being pushed by those subreddits' moderators. So is it not fair to say that t_D (and similar subs) were very clearly not in favor of free speech either?

sebmellen 6y ago
Perhaps. I know that a number of objectively hateful subreddits were not banned because they were hateful of people "in the majority" (whatever that means). An archived copy of Reddit's "Account and Community Restrictions" from the time of the ban reads as such [0]: > While the rule on hate protects such groups, it does not protect all groups or all forms of identity. For example, the rule does not protect groups of people who are in the majority or who promote such attacks of hate. The question here veers into the territory of whether Reddit is a "publisher" or "platform". Their editorial decision to ban certain kinds of loosely-defined "hate" seems to clearly point to them being an editorializing publisher of content. This, in addition to their editing of user's posts criticizing their core team [1] and other such egregious acts. There's no compelling reason for me to believe Reddit acted in good faith. [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20200701001008/https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/rules-reporting/account-and-community-restrictions/promoting-hate-based-identity-or https://web.archive.org/web/20200701001008/https://www.reddi... [1]: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reddit-ceo-edits-user-comments_n_5839cf32e4b000af95ee5b68 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reddit-ceo-edits-user-comment...
- watwut 6y ago
  I assume those not banned subs are still there and you can link them. Because whole ton of subs were banned, not just Donald and not just right wing.
  - rapsey 6y ago
    If rules applied to all subs the same topmindsofreddit would have been banned long ago
  - zapdrive 6y ago
    [1] is an example of a hate sub against men that's not banned by reddit. But [2] is just a group of men who have decided to never date, marry etc. is quarantined because somehow that is hate. Also how are women a minority when they are 50% of the population? Baffles me. 1 https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ 2 https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/
    - DavidVoid 6y ago
      Both those subs are sexist garbage and MGTOW is not "just a group of men who have decided to never date, marry etc.". It's a shitty community that frequently promotes sexist garbage like this [1, 2]. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/i3dqzi/very_superficial/ https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/i3dqzi/very_superfic... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/iwaqm5/we_equality_now/ https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/iwaqm5/we_equality_n...
- DavidVoid 6y ago
  > I know that a number of objectively hateful subreddits were not banned because they were hateful of people "in the majority" (whatever that means). Don't be vague, give concrete examples if you're going to make broad statements like that. > The question here veers into the territory of whether Reddit is a "publisher" or "platform". Well are subreddits "publishers" or "platforms" then? Because a lot of the hateful subs that have been shut down over the years (t_D, uncensorednews, European, etc.) banned users who disagreed with their moderators.
  - sebmellen 6y ago
    Subreddits are composed of communities which (in theory) are self-moderating. The communities themselves can be publishers or platforms, the question here is about whether or not Reddit should have the editorial authority to delete subreddits at will. Here is a small list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities#Active_subreddits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communiti.... Most of these subreddits are not Nazi or Stalinist-level hateful, but could still be considered hateful (the definition of hate is actually very shaky, I regret saying "objectively hateful" in my above comment). I could back to you with a longer list of more underground subreddits, though I don't really have the time to. You can go to something like https://reddit.guide https://reddit.guide and search for subreddits similar to the ones banned. Plenty are still active, just much smaller.
  - k33n 6y ago
    Why do you guys always call t_d a hate sub? It was a Trump fan sub. Dedicated to positive content about Trump. It was the complete opposite of hateful, of course. Now, take the far left sub “/r/politics” which actively promotes hatred against half of the United States. Threats of violence against law enforcement abound there. Calls for actual bloodshed and violent “revolution” constantly. Subreddits are private or public communities that all have their own rules for what can be posted. Reddit itself is a publisher. Legally speaking, they curate a collection of subreddits and publish them. Reddit (and other pro-communist and anti-American publishers like Twitter) will likely face massive legal action from the DOJ if Americans vote to give Trump a second term. I for one can’t wait to see these commies bite the dust in federal court!
throwaway_gdc 6y ago
There is still plenty of racism on reddit. Look up any thread about Indian, Chinese and Romani (Gypsy) people. The Reddit admins only goes after racism when the target is people contemporary liberal media sympathize with. They only banned anti-black racist subreddits and users after the 2015 Charleston church shooting. They only banned anti-Semitic subreddits and users after the 2018 Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. They only banned Islamophobic subreddits and users after the 2019 Christchurch mosque shootings.
- watwut 6y ago
  How does banning those reddits only after shootings prove it is about groups liberals sympatize with? I mean it shows mostly that reddit bans after shootings.
  - carlinmack 6y ago
    Shootings that the contemporary liberal media highlight. We can't recall mass violence that target Asian, Romani, or global south communities because our media doesn't think it's notable enough.
    - djsumdog 6y ago
      and yet there's nothing on the anniversary of the Las Vegas shooting this year (most likely because the media needs to memory hole what was really a failed assassination attempt)
      - saagarjha 6y ago
        Failed assassination attempt? The gunman fired randomly into a crowd, who could they have been trying to assassinate?
k33n 6y ago
I’m amused when people post flat out lies like this. T_d was a positive sub that loved Trump. They were pretty “rah rah” about him. It drove the anti-Trump people crazy, which is why it was banned. That’s the only reason. Just go cruise the comments on /r/politics for proof. They call for actual bloodshed and for the death of Trump and his supporters every single day. TDS is very real. It causes people such as yourself to parrot flat out lies that have no basis in reality — and you seem to actually feel good about it. It’s bizarre and I suspect history will look back on it as a mass hysteria event.
- DavidVoid 6y ago
  You can't in good faith make the argument that t_D was a positive sub. It loved Trump, yes, but it also frequently called for the execution of Muslims [1], immigrants [2], Planned Parenthood employees [3], Hillary Clinton [4], etc. [5] [1] https://archive.is/Kfl86 https://archive.is/Kfl86 https://archive.is/DwlAc https://archive.is/DwlAc [2] https://archive.is/oOqOR https://archive.is/oOqOR [3] https://archive.is/LGH19 https://archive.is/LGH19 [4] https://archive.is/0uCjr https://archive.is/0uCjr https://archive.ph/LPuGH https://archive.ph/LPuGH https://archive.fo/Z0s1x https://archive.fo/Z0s1x [5] https://archive.ph/2Gj8w https://archive.ph/2Gj8w
  - k33n 6y ago
    If I cared to waste my time doing so, I could find plenty of objectionable comments in just about any Reddit sub. You seem to believe tough conversations about whether Muslim culture is compatible with Western culture, or whether the US should begin mass deportations of illegal aliens should not occur. I’d have to disagree with you there. If we can’t discuss complex topics like this on the internet, then where can we discuss them? You’re really not very good at gaslighting.
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      What you are describing are not “tough conversations”, they are hardly a conversation at all. Trying to misrepresent the parent comment’s claim that they want to suppress all discussion of these topics and then calling their description an attempt at “gaslighting” is fairly poor-faith.
itsthewrongspe 6y ago
If misinformation and hate are why t_D was banned, why are r/latestagecapitalism (openly hateful and violent / ban dissenters),r/blackpeopletwitter (openly racist, spread misinformation), r/socialistrifleassociation (openly fomenting revolution) allowed to exist? Reddit just bans speech it doesn't like. It has nothing to do with hate -- only who you hate. Hating conservatives, Republicans, Whites? That's all fine on reddit. Hell, it's fine here. How long will this comment last?
- djsumdog 6y ago
  Don't comment on comments. It's against the rules and isn't constructive. But I agree with you. Reddit is growing to be as hard-left as voat is hard-right. It's not quite there because there are still a lot of old communities before everything got political who still use Reddit (/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ and such). But honestly, everyone needs to get off Reddit and go back to the days of phpBB forums, individual blogs and RSS feeds. Aggregation sites like HN, Reddit, etc should be where you go to promote stuff you've found though following individual you like.
hnracer 6y ago
Which is what /r/LateStageCapitalism, and many other subreddits, do. Only it's allowed because they are not right wing. The anti-free speech claim is made not by judging the ban of t_D in isolation, but by looking at how their policies are selectively enforced across their platform in order to silence right-wing opinions and perspectives. In particular, support for Trump. A sub like /r/politics, dedicated primarily to anti-Trump content, is fine though, even if their users are wishing him death after getting COVID and are actively promulgating conspiracy theories.
bborud 6y ago
It can’t be a free speech issue. Reddit is not part of government.
- LiNeXT 6y ago
  Free speech issues aren't the exclusive domain of government.
ethanwillis 6y ago
Then why did they ban /r/Holodomor? Ideological motivation.
- DavidVoid 6y ago
  Not 100% sure but probably because the top mod was an anti-semite and 9/11 truther. It doesn't seem like it was a particularly active sub though.
  - ethanwillis 6y ago
    It's interesting that your rationale is so similar to the same old propaganda. If you're going to make those claims you should source it, otherwise it's just a convenient way to dismiss this without really engaging. In 1987, Tottle published his controversial book as Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: the Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard, in which he asserts that claims the Holodomor was an intentional genocide are "fraudulent", and "a creation of Nazi propagandists". [1] Russian publicist Yuri Mukhin has a published a book titled "Hysterical Women of the Holodomor", dismissing Holodomor as "Russophobia" and "a trump card of the Ukrainian Nazis." [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Douglas_Tottle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Dougla... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Denial_literature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Denial...
    - DavidVoid 6y ago
      I'm definitely not denying the Holodomor or any of Stalin's crimes. But unfortunately some of the people who are most adamant about spreading information about the Holdomor are not doing so to spread information about the atrocity, but rather to spread their own anti-semitic propaganda. u/soccer was a moderator of r/911truth and, according to archived versions of their user page, posted quite a lot of links to "Israel did 9/11" conspiracy websites like https://careandwashingofthebrain.blogspot https://careandwashingofthebrain.blogspot. r/uncensorednews essentially did the same thing. It posed as an "unbiased" source of news but the sub's creator and top moderator was pretty clearly pushing his own neo-nazi views.
raxxorrax 6y ago
They were not as much in favor of free speech as they often proclaim. It is probably mostly due to reactionary behavior. I think the banning was a mistake, they were also discriminated against on political grounds. If you do that because you think it necessary I would at least expect results.

sebmellen 6y ago

Perhaps. I know that a number of objectively hateful subreddits were not banned because they were hateful of people "in the majority" (whatever that means). An archived copy of Reddit's "Account and Community Restrictions" from the time of the ban reads as such [0]: > While the rule on hate protects such groups, it does not protect all groups or all forms of identity. For example, the rule does not protect groups of people who are in the majority or who promote such attacks of hate. The question here veers into the territory of whether Reddit is a "publisher" or "platform". Their editorial decision to ban certain kinds of loosely-defined "hate" seems to clearly point to them being an editorializing publisher of content. This, in addition to their editing of user's posts criticizing their core team [1] and other such egregious acts. There's no compelling reason for me to believe Reddit acted in good faith. [0]: https://web.archive.org/web/20200701001008/https://www.reddithelp.com/en/categories/rules-reporting/account-and-community-restrictions/promoting-hate-based-identity-or https://web.archive.org/web/20200701001008/https://www.reddi... [1]: https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reddit-ceo-edits-user-comments_n_5839cf32e4b000af95ee5b68 https://www.huffpost.com/entry/reddit-ceo-edits-user-comment...

watwut 6y ago
I assume those not banned subs are still there and you can link them. Because whole ton of subs were banned, not just Donald and not just right wing.
- rapsey 6y ago
  If rules applied to all subs the same topmindsofreddit would have been banned long ago
- zapdrive 6y ago
  [1] is an example of a hate sub against men that's not banned by reddit. But [2] is just a group of men who have decided to never date, marry etc. is quarantined because somehow that is hate. Also how are women a minority when they are 50% of the population? Baffles me. 1 https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ https://www.reddit.com/r/FemaleDatingStrategy/ 2 https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/
  - DavidVoid 6y ago
    Both those subs are sexist garbage and MGTOW is not "just a group of men who have decided to never date, marry etc.". It's a shitty community that frequently promotes sexist garbage like this [1, 2]. [1] https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/i3dqzi/very_superficial/ https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/i3dqzi/very_superfic... [2] https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/iwaqm5/we_equality_now/ https://old.reddit.com/r/MGTOW/comments/iwaqm5/we_equality_n...
DavidVoid 6y ago
> I know that a number of objectively hateful subreddits were not banned because they were hateful of people "in the majority" (whatever that means). Don't be vague, give concrete examples if you're going to make broad statements like that. > The question here veers into the territory of whether Reddit is a "publisher" or "platform". Well are subreddits "publishers" or "platforms" then? Because a lot of the hateful subs that have been shut down over the years (t_D, uncensorednews, European, etc.) banned users who disagreed with their moderators.
- sebmellen 6y ago
  Subreddits are composed of communities which (in theory) are self-moderating. The communities themselves can be publishers or platforms, the question here is about whether or not Reddit should have the editorial authority to delete subreddits at will. Here is a small list: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communities#Active_subreddits https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Controversial_Reddit_communiti.... Most of these subreddits are not Nazi or Stalinist-level hateful, but could still be considered hateful (the definition of hate is actually very shaky, I regret saying "objectively hateful" in my above comment). I could back to you with a longer list of more underground subreddits, though I don't really have the time to. You can go to something like https://reddit.guide https://reddit.guide and search for subreddits similar to the ones banned. Plenty are still active, just much smaller.
- k33n 6y ago
  Why do you guys always call t_d a hate sub? It was a Trump fan sub. Dedicated to positive content about Trump. It was the complete opposite of hateful, of course. Now, take the far left sub “/r/politics” which actively promotes hatred against half of the United States. Threats of violence against law enforcement abound there. Calls for actual bloodshed and violent “revolution” constantly. Subreddits are private or public communities that all have their own rules for what can be posted. Reddit itself is a publisher. Legally speaking, they curate a collection of subreddits and publish them. Reddit (and other pro-communist and anti-American publishers like Twitter) will likely face massive legal action from the DOJ if Americans vote to give Trump a second term. I for one can’t wait to see these commies bite the dust in federal court!

throwaway_gdc 6y ago

There is still plenty of racism on reddit. Look up any thread about Indian, Chinese and Romani (Gypsy) people. The Reddit admins only goes after racism when the target is people contemporary liberal media sympathize with. They only banned anti-black racist subreddits and users after the 2015 Charleston church shooting. They only banned anti-Semitic subreddits and users after the 2018 Pittsburgh synagogue shooting. They only banned Islamophobic subreddits and users after the 2019 Christchurch mosque shootings.

watwut 6y ago
How does banning those reddits only after shootings prove it is about groups liberals sympatize with? I mean it shows mostly that reddit bans after shootings.
- carlinmack 6y ago
  Shootings that the contemporary liberal media highlight. We can't recall mass violence that target Asian, Romani, or global south communities because our media doesn't think it's notable enough.
  - djsumdog 6y ago
    and yet there's nothing on the anniversary of the Las Vegas shooting this year (most likely because the media needs to memory hole what was really a failed assassination attempt)
    - saagarjha 6y ago
      Failed assassination attempt? The gunman fired randomly into a crowd, who could they have been trying to assassinate?

k33n 6y ago

I’m amused when people post flat out lies like this. T_d was a positive sub that loved Trump. They were pretty “rah rah” about him. It drove the anti-Trump people crazy, which is why it was banned. That’s the only reason. Just go cruise the comments on /r/politics for proof. They call for actual bloodshed and for the death of Trump and his supporters every single day. TDS is very real. It causes people such as yourself to parrot flat out lies that have no basis in reality — and you seem to actually feel good about it. It’s bizarre and I suspect history will look back on it as a mass hysteria event.

DavidVoid 6y ago
You can't in good faith make the argument that t_D was a positive sub. It loved Trump, yes, but it also frequently called for the execution of Muslims [1], immigrants [2], Planned Parenthood employees [3], Hillary Clinton [4], etc. [5] [1] https://archive.is/Kfl86 https://archive.is/Kfl86 https://archive.is/DwlAc https://archive.is/DwlAc [2] https://archive.is/oOqOR https://archive.is/oOqOR [3] https://archive.is/LGH19 https://archive.is/LGH19 [4] https://archive.is/0uCjr https://archive.is/0uCjr https://archive.ph/LPuGH https://archive.ph/LPuGH https://archive.fo/Z0s1x https://archive.fo/Z0s1x [5] https://archive.ph/2Gj8w https://archive.ph/2Gj8w
- k33n 6y ago
  If I cared to waste my time doing so, I could find plenty of objectionable comments in just about any Reddit sub. You seem to believe tough conversations about whether Muslim culture is compatible with Western culture, or whether the US should begin mass deportations of illegal aliens should not occur. I’d have to disagree with you there. If we can’t discuss complex topics like this on the internet, then where can we discuss them? You’re really not very good at gaslighting.
  - saagarjha 6y ago
    What you are describing are not “tough conversations”, they are hardly a conversation at all. Trying to misrepresent the parent comment’s claim that they want to suppress all discussion of these topics and then calling their description an attempt at “gaslighting” is fairly poor-faith.

itsthewrongspe 6y ago

If misinformation and hate are why t_D was banned, why are r/latestagecapitalism (openly hateful and violent / ban dissenters),r/blackpeopletwitter (openly racist, spread misinformation), r/socialistrifleassociation (openly fomenting revolution) allowed to exist? Reddit just bans speech it doesn't like. It has nothing to do with hate -- only who you hate. Hating conservatives, Republicans, Whites? That's all fine on reddit. Hell, it's fine here. How long will this comment last?

djsumdog 6y ago
Don't comment on comments. It's against the rules and isn't constructive. But I agree with you. Reddit is growing to be as hard-left as voat is hard-right. It's not quite there because there are still a lot of old communities before everything got political who still use Reddit (/r/MechanicalKeyboards/ and such). But honestly, everyone needs to get off Reddit and go back to the days of phpBB forums, individual blogs and RSS feeds. Aggregation sites like HN, Reddit, etc should be where you go to promote stuff you've found though following individual you like.

hnracer 6y ago

Which is what /r/LateStageCapitalism, and many other subreddits, do. Only it's allowed because they are not right wing. The anti-free speech claim is made not by judging the ban of t_D in isolation, but by looking at how their policies are selectively enforced across their platform in order to silence right-wing opinions and perspectives. In particular, support for Trump. A sub like /r/politics, dedicated primarily to anti-Trump content, is fine though, even if their users are wishing him death after getting COVID and are actively promulgating conspiracy theories.

bborud 6y ago

It can’t be a free speech issue. Reddit is not part of government.

LiNeXT 6y ago
Free speech issues aren't the exclusive domain of government.

ethanwillis 6y ago

Then why did they ban /r/Holodomor? Ideological motivation.

DavidVoid 6y ago
Not 100% sure but probably because the top mod was an anti-semite and 9/11 truther. It doesn't seem like it was a particularly active sub though.
- ethanwillis 6y ago
  It's interesting that your rationale is so similar to the same old propaganda. If you're going to make those claims you should source it, otherwise it's just a convenient way to dismiss this without really engaging. In 1987, Tottle published his controversial book as Fraud, Famine, and Fascism: the Ukrainian Genocide Myth from Hitler to Harvard, in which he asserts that claims the Holodomor was an intentional genocide are "fraudulent", and "a creation of Nazi propagandists". [1] Russian publicist Yuri Mukhin has a published a book titled "Hysterical Women of the Holodomor", dismissing Holodomor as "Russophobia" and "a trump card of the Ukrainian Nazis." [2] [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Douglas_Tottle https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Dougla... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Denial_literature https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denial_of_the_Holodomor#Denial...
  - DavidVoid 6y ago
    I'm definitely not denying the Holodomor or any of Stalin's crimes. But unfortunately some of the people who are most adamant about spreading information about the Holdomor are not doing so to spread information about the atrocity, but rather to spread their own anti-semitic propaganda. u/soccer was a moderator of r/911truth and, according to archived versions of their user page, posted quite a lot of links to "Israel did 9/11" conspiracy websites like https://careandwashingofthebrain.blogspot https://careandwashingofthebrain.blogspot. r/uncensorednews essentially did the same thing. It posed as an "unbiased" source of news but the sub's creator and top moderator was pretty clearly pushing his own neo-nazi views.

raxxorrax 6y ago

They were not as much in favor of free speech as they often proclaim. It is probably mostly due to reactionary behavior. I think the banning was a mistake, they were also discriminated against on political grounds. If you do that because you think it necessary I would at least expect results.