16 ms·

Paul Stamets on the interrelationship among mushrooms, consciousness, and nature

231 points by dnetesn 6y ago

quantumwoke 6y ago
I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months during quarantine as a bit of a cognitive experiment. I feel a lot more switched on and focused in my work. Reading these posts I wonder what other diseases such as Parkinson's, seizures, PTSD, depression, anxiety have yet to be studied and require more research. Can anyone speak to this? Anything else I should add to my stack?
- trabant00 6y ago
  > I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months [...] I didn't get COVID and I feel a lot more switched on and focused You lost your causation vs correlation sense though :)
  - agumonkey 6y ago
    he's now fully quantum
  - qz2 6y ago
    Nailed it. A lot of the "I did this and it had great effects" are compounded with "I did this and it ruined my life" and a bit of "I did this and it ruined my life and everyone around me". I suspect the human mind is tailored to promote the first outcome and stick it's fingers in its metaphorical ears about the last two outcomes. Turns out we need actual formal studies and even those aren't necessarily conclusive so it's best to err on the side of caution.
    - mimac 6y ago
      Good evidence that big doses work: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881120919957 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026988112091995...
      - qz2 6y ago
        I’m sure that is caveated on some people and for some conditions. I’d expect a better standard and more research to be defined here or we’ll end up with another paroxetine mess on our hands. I lost a decade of my life to cleaning up after that mess and that was just a family member’s encounter with it. What is factual is that things are invariably more complicated than they look when it comes to human minds. Look up “study 329” for an example of complexity.
    - dmurray 6y ago
      > I suspect the human mind is tailored to promote the first outcome and stick it's fingers in its metaphorical ears about the last two outcomes. It's more complicated than that. Plenty of people hear the bad outcomes and stick their fingers in their ears about the good ones. The subject of recreational drug use is a particularly good one for eliciting this behaviour, both for and against. The interesting questions are how people in the same society get primed for one reaction over the other, and how we can individually avoid this behaviour and approach controversial topics with an open mind.
      - adamsea 6y ago
        And (although I think you kinda said this), different people may respond in different ways.
  - PakG1 6y ago
    This sounds too much like Billions season 5 episode 7. Uncanny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJNljm1pVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJNljm1pVs
    - okamiueru 6y ago
      Is that clip indicative of the quality of the show?
      - drewmate 6y ago
        Currently, yes. The first season was _much_ better, and there has been a decline (at first steep, then gradual and consistent) with each season since then. This was the last episode they aired due to COVID-related production shutdown. They're supposed to finish this season and do another, but I wonder if the show might just shut down quietly at this point.
        toby 6y ago
        It was initially based on a true story described in the book "Black Edge". It just kept getting more and more outlandish once they ran out of source material.
  - f69281c 6y ago
    The self-reported positive effects hallucinogens are awful. They alter your perception so your perception of perceived benefits is unreliable, and anyone who's not tripping can tell you that. I mean, with full doses the reported benefits are things like connecting with the thread of the universe and speaking across planes to dimensional beings that inform you that we're all one, but the word fractal is jammed in there somewhere. I'm not saying these people can't have fun, but pulling THAT experience back to just reduced levels of the drug is probably still going to give terrible accuracy for self reported results. Microdosing reminds me of those people who left high school parties saying it was fine because they drive better drunk, or that they took some coke to balance it out.
    - teataster 6y ago
      Microdosing implies non psychoactive dose. It would be more like people who left after drinking one beer because they were not under the influence. Furthermore, how can you be certain that you sober perception is more accurate than the altered one? How can you be certain that the effects of microdosing are even comparable to full doses? I am not making claims either way, just asking.
    - loves_mangoes 6y ago
      Here's my personal anecdote: I took acid once (200ug sublingual), and realized that I need to clean my apartment and brush my teeth more often. I'm not a very spiritual person, and I don't have a strong desire to 'connect with the thread of the universe'. But I'm very curious and happy to try things, if I can convince myself they're reasonably safe. That was a few weeks ago, and I'm happy to report that my floor is noticeably cleaner and my teeth cared for =) I could try to claim other less measurable and subjective benefits, but that wouldn't be very honest with myself after only a couple weeks, and I doubt you'd believe me.
    - travisjungroth 6y ago
      If someone is impaired to drive they are by definition not microdosing. The equivalent to alcohol would be like a quarter of a beer.
- dmos62 6y ago
  Nice to have such a steady access to psilocybin. Why not LSD, by the way? > I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months, [...] I didn't get COVID. Made me laugh.
  - emteycz 6y ago
    Isn't the tolerance to LSD built way too fast for daily (micro)usage over half a year?
    - teataster 6y ago
      Yes, same as psilocybin. When you microdose you are not supposed to get psychedelic effects. The supposed benefits come from prolonged presence of the molecule in the body. Similar how antidepressants work, the point is not to take one tablet once.
      - WalterSear 6y ago
        The effects of microdosing begin on consumption and end on discontinuation. They do not build up and fade slowly. Tolerance and breaks are frequently discussed. So, it's not about the effect of a prolonged presence.
    - quantumwoke 6y ago
      Not sure what other people are using, but I've worked up to about 64mcg/day.
      - NeutronStar 6y ago
        100mcg is usually a full dose. Usually micrososing is 1/10th of a typical full dose so 10mcg. Your tolerance is already quite high if you're at 64mcg/day and not actively feeling any tripping.
  - dkersten 6y ago
    > Why not LSD At least this [1] suggests that LSD microdosing doesn’t do anything, while there have been a few studies that suggested psilocybin micrososing does. Dunno how strong the evidence is in either direction but that would make me more inclined to start with psilocybin if I were to experiment myself. [1] https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing#conclusion https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing#conclusion
- BrianOnHN 6y ago
  What size micro dose? Personally, I've concluded I cannot be productive with even as little as 100-200mg of cubes.
  - Out_of_Characte 6y ago
    mcg, I presume. But 200mcg is a really high dose. 10-20 would be a microdose for most. I hope you test your stuff and have the right potency because your comment doesn't sound right.
    - travisjungroth 6y ago
      They’re talking about milligrams of cubensis mushrooms (cubes) not micrograms of LSD.
      - Out_of_Characte 6y ago
        My bad, tracked the wrong parent comment by mistake. I thought he was talking about consumable microdose lsd cubes. Makes alot more sense now.
  - WalterSear 6y ago
    5-7 mg. 10mg verges on a perceptual dose for me.
- phkahler 6y ago
  >> I feel a lot more switched on and focused in my work. Quarantine alone can do that for some people. Shutting out the world is a requirement to focus on deep work. Same reason Joel Spolsky says software engineers need offices with doors. Not saying you're wrong, just that you cant separate out this obvious factor in your experiment.
- chrisweekly 6y ago
  Lots of questions; top 2: How did you get started? Is there a reasonably safe (both medically and legally) way to source it?
  - cakemuncher 6y ago
    1. Going into this, you need to research a ton. 2. Know someone that sells it. Or look for a field for them and go hunting. Or grow them, spores are legal and you can buy everything you need online.
  - WalterSear 6y ago
    There are many places online that will ship spores where it is legal to have spores. Many places discussing it, too.
- dezmou 6y ago
  I started microdosing psilocybin since 3 years, sometime every day, sometime once every 1 or 2 weeks. When I take it the morning, I am very focused on my work, but also I am less stressed and anxious. I had a Tinder period with lot of date and psilocybin really help to build confident with women.
  - throw_this_one 6y ago
    Do you take the psilocybin specifically before the date? Or just in general, the microdosing has made you better with women
    - dezmou 6y ago
      Every morning of the day of the date, but surely in general too, I feel like upgraded in every field possible with a long terme cure.
      - throw_this_one 6y ago
        Yeah I tried for the first time. Was roughly 300mg? For the first hour I was a bit off, but then it cleared and I felt very straightforward and open emotionally all day. Could definitely see it being useful for a date. What's your dose, is it extract or raw material?
        dezmou 6y ago
        It is raw dried B+ magic mushroom, I mix it to obtain a powder. I don't know the exact gram of dose, it is about between 0.5 and 1.0 cubic centimeter of powder
  - andai 6y ago
    Interesting, when I was microdosing LSD I was much more social: less social anxiety, more outgoing and more friendly. (A nicer person, as far as I can tell!) Also I was able to consistently keep an early bedtime for the first time in my life. The most interesting effect for me was that it became impossible to procrastinate. (I normally spend 99% of my time procrastinating.) I would go on YouTube or Reddit but the whole time I was just consciously aware that I was trying to distract myself from something... so in the end it was easier to just go ahead and do the damn thing to get it off my mind. Very productive time for me.
- say_it_as_it_is 6y ago
  Lion's Mane mushroom is being marketed by Stamets
Gys 6y ago
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin: 'a naturally occurring psychedelic prodrug compound produced by more than 200 species of fungus'
browsergrip 6y ago
Paul stamets is also the name of the Astromycologist on Star trek discovery.
- choeger 6y ago
  What an absolute random coincidence! What are the chances? ;)
- narag 6y ago
  Obviously. The ship has an experimental drive based on mushrooms.
  - bdcravens 6y ago
    He even consulted with the writers on that technology. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets_(mycologist) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets_(mycologis...
- TeMPOraL 6y ago
  Yeah, I have a feeling that's why I see his name so often on HN these days. The show propelled him to wider recognition.
  - bluntfang 6y ago
    Joe Rogan did more for his general populace celebrity status than Star Trek
  - throwaway316943 6y ago
    Lol, sure, must be from Star Trek.
- carapace 6y ago
  One of the weirdest things about that show. Who does that? Did they ask him for permission first?
  - 6y ago
trabant00 6y ago
I'm sorry but this is just hippy nonsense. It's not the lack of mental integration into nature that is stopping us from taking care of the enverionment. And you don't need to trip on mushrooms to see the filth all arround us. The real issues include: not being able to stop production and consumption for obvious reasons. Energy production and distribution logistics. Understanding natural ecosystems and setting priorities on how to protect them. Sharing the world with neighbours that can outcompete you because they don't pay the high costs of clean industry. And many more real hard problems, not just a state of mind. tldr: this article is the equivalent of "why can't we all just get along" plan for world peace.
- quantumwoke 6y ago
  I find it best to argue in good faith when coming to these kinds of low-data conversations. There are obviously many such factors involved in our integration with the environment. Why couldn't it be psilocybin (or other nootropic compound) that pushes us towards a more sustainable future with fewer mental health/chronic pain issues? This is a classic HN takedown of an otherwise interesting post.
  - Ygg2 6y ago
    It's still the argument based on consumption. Let's consume X, surely that will sort our issue of emitting too much CO2. Edit: not to mention. Our environmental problems aren't consumption or conscience, or even technology based, but lack of political will.
    - defterGoose 6y ago
      Saying the problem isn't related to consumption is just willfully obtuse and wrong.
      - Ygg2 6y ago
        This magical mushroom needs to be distributed to people, right? And they need to be grown, right? Unless they are grown in Narnia and transported via teleportation, they are going to cause CO2 emissions, for dubious gains. His argument was - it made me believe in unity with nature, ergo it will work on everyone. Also here is an unverified study.
k33n 6y ago
I thought these types “believed in science” yet here we are just casually stating that if we all do shrooms, the environment will be “saved”. Can’t make this stuff up.
- phkahler 6y ago
  It's just like all the practical uses of hemp we used to hear about.
  - atom-morgan 6y ago
    Aren't governments getting in the way of those uses?
  - dkdbejwi383 6y ago
    Well I'll tell you, I bought 500m of hemp rope because I was told it could use used to replace copper cabling for green electricity, ye knar?. It didn't work like, but I have now got the most environmentally friendly footstool in all of Middlesbrough.
jatgoodwin 6y ago
The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are. It's the spotlighting effect multiplied. Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole, or dare I say when stupid people take them they just revel in the intoxication. You just have to read the old research literature on LSD like stuff from James Fadiman to understand that these are extremely dangerous substances that can cause trauma and other serious psychological problems if not used extremely specifically and carefully. If a subject is carefully prepared and trained in the weeks leading up to a trip, then carefully guided through by a psychologist in a 3 day process, then psychedelics have been proven in studies to be used to solve problems effectively. This isn't something you can do on your own. It's this bizarre problem of we've been lied to for so long about the dangers of these drugs that the actual dangers get buried and nobody talks about the very real possibility of having PTSD flashbacks for the rest of your life to a moment when you were tripping then you start tripping again and have to run for your serquel.
- sev 6y ago
  The only idea conveyed in your message that has any factual basis is that psychedelics should be taken with a lot of care, preparation, and consideration, including pre existing susceptibilities. Everything else you said builds on top of this idea as if they are also fact based, but they are not. Let’s not make the social acceptance of psychedelics even harder than they already have been made to be.
  - mistermann 6y ago
    You have noticed something very interesting about the nature of human consciousness and the way it conceptualizes the world, and the events, ideas, people, etc within it. Other examples of this phenomenon can be observed in this thread, and all other threads on any topic. I propose that this phenomenon can be productively explored and ~understood with the usage of psychedelics if one goes in with this specific intention.
- humbleMouse 6y ago
  “This isn’t something you can do on your own” I’m gonna have to push back here. Go rent a cabin in the woods and eat some mushrooms and I guarantee you can work thru issues on your own.
spaetzleesser 6y ago
I am all for legalization but this stuffs sound exactly like what was written a few years about Marijuana. There were tons of articles about how Marijuana use will do things like saving the environment, saves the rain forest, cure cancer and so on. For some reason like to overshoot with this predictions of the benefits of these things. In the end our capitalist world will probably prevail and whatever expansion of consciousness happens will be at the surface level.
- defterGoose 6y ago
  I think it's much more likely that "our capitalist world" will drive us off a cliff rather than into a bright future. We have absolutely zero precedent for the changes we are facing. However, I do believe individuals still have agency in the world. We have to try at least, I guess.
ArtWomb 6y ago
Related: Berkeley launches new center for psychedelic research https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/09/14/uc-berkeley-launches-new-center-for-psychedelic-science-and-education/ https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/09/14/uc-berkeley-launches-ne...
toss1 6y ago
I received some very helpful wisdom on this topic, many years ago in my early teens, from a random guy I met on a beach. He said "if you are interested in tripping, you'll almost surely do it. Just be sure to never feel pressured to do it at any one time - it'll always be there. When you do, just be sure you feel comfortable, not tense, and are in a good situation, among friends, and so on. ", basically how to avoid bad trips. Only did a handful of times, but every time was totally worth it, mind expanding, and enjoyable. Definite thanks in no small part to the wisdom from a random stranger.
- travisjungroth 6y ago
  I think that because psychedelics are illegal part of why people do them is to satisfy their need for danger. This is the person who thinks “why the hell not!” when taking acid for the first time from a stranger at a party. They’re in this rule breaking mindset already, so stuff like “set and setting” is just one more rule to break. It’s like if scuba diving was illegal. I’m doubtful that people would do it as carefully. The advice you got from that stranger seems like a good antidote to that mindset. “It’ll always be there.” That sentence alone seems to take the edge off. You don’t have to take it just because you were offered. It’ll come by again.
  - toss1 6y ago
    yup, peer pressure is probably the worst reason to do anything!
TedDoesntTalk 6y ago
> Evolution is the evolution of intelligence Where can I read more of this idea?
- carapace 6y ago
  Gregory Bateson, "Steps to an Ecology of Mind" and "Mind and Nature: A Necessary Unity".
michalf6 6y ago
It can't save the environment from cultures that will bulldoze over incapacitated and non-competing westerners who buy this hippie nonsense. Is there any good data on the effects of taking psychedelics on aggression / ambition / aggreableness / conscientiousness? The "becoming one with Nature" theme seems to be pretty common among enthusiasts, although I personally didn't notice a lasting effect after eating shrooms. I'm curious if there's a cause-effect relationship or it's just bias in people who gravitate to this.
- animal_spirits 6y ago
  I was curious and decided to look it up. Turns out there is a peer reviewed Journal of Psychopharmacology that has many published papers on topics that you mention. https://journals.sagepub.com/home/jop https://journals.sagepub.com/home/jop
- currymj 6y ago
  Stamets himself is quite a successful entrepreneur, as one data point. He funds much of his research out of the proceeds from his business selling mushroom-based products.
  - WalterSear 6y ago
    His mushroom-based products are well known for containing only trace amounts of the active ingredients. They are a scam and beg question of Stamet's claims and motives.
    - colordrops 6y ago
      Could you provide some evidence of this?
      - WalterSear 6y ago
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B9Rqr_3EcY&feature=youtu.be&t=379 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B9Rqr_3EcY&feature=youtu.be... https://www.reddit.com/r/MushroomSupplements/comments/9o26my/measurement_of_%CE%B2glucan_in_mushrooms_and_mycelial/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MushroomSupplements/comments/9o26my...
currymj 6y ago
i don't like this argument at all. protecting the environment is an immense responsibility that we all share, so the argument veers close to implying that choosing not to take psychedelic drugs is morally wrong -- willfully choosing to inhibit "evolutionary intelligence". i've noticed that in the last couple years, psychedelic advocates have shifted from advocating for legalization and increased research (very good in my view), to being very defensive about possible dangers, to applying social pressure against people who don't want to take psychedelics. of course this only happens right now in certain limited social circles, but it is spreading. not a good trend in my view, and not very reassuring if psychedelics are supposed to help people be more enlightened and open-minded.
- mistermann 6y ago
  I would place myself solidly into this category of people, although I try to avoid the negative behaviors that you validly point out. In response, I ask: how confident are you in your (as I see it) perception/estimation that psychedelics do not (or, are highly unlikely to) have some genuine (in fact) quality that could bring immense value to the world? If we were to find a way to use them in the proper ways (which would include close integration with scientific study of the ongoing process), does it seem reasonably plausible to you that some sort of a significant achievement could be achieved?
  - currymj 6y ago
    i think if they really work well as part of treatment for PTSD and other aftereffects of trauma, and perhaps other mental illnesses, that would be of profound value for humanity. as far as people taking them in general: from looking at people who take psychedelics, it doesn't seem to me that they're any more or less enlightened or emotionally mature than people who don't. whatever the subjective experience, it seems like all the flaws and foibles of humanity are still there just as much. it does seem like it teaches people a particular outlook or way of relating to the world -- but I don't think it's one that is superior or inferior to other perspectives. Probably society needs people who relate to life in many different ways. I would worry about living in a society where it is the norm for everyone to take psychedelic drugs multiple times per year. I think things would get pretty weird.
grimzucchini 6y ago
Terence McKenna would be agree.
dghughes 6y ago
I saw this on Twitter today (mushroom related) by Dr. Inés Dawson. Why do mushrooms always have double-barrelled surnames? They're hyphae-nated!
carapace 6y ago
See also "What Bodies Think About: Bioelectric Computation Outside the Nervous System" (youtube.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18736698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18736698
jp0d 6y ago
I got a call from a friend today, who is dealing with depression. He has ready many such articles and has been microdosing on psilocybin mushrooms. He wanted my help to be with him as a sober person when he goes through the experience. I had to say no. I've two simple reasons. 1. Mushrooms are illegal in Australia. I don't want him or I to be part of any illegal activity. 2. Even though he argued that the big pharma wouldn't let this happen etc, modern medicine has saved so many lives that we at least should try to understand it better. I requested him to see a psychiatrist and go through therapy. Talk to the to professional and seek natural alternatives to prescription medicine, if available. I could be wrong in my opinion. As a student of statistics, I'd love to read some study results on the effect of psilocybin before believing this.
- DanBC 6y ago
  I'm not a healthcare professional. Depression is an umbrella term and it covers a wide range of different things, and a wide range of severity. At its most severe depression is a fatal illness. It is safe[1] to ask people if they've considered suicide. If people have suicidal thoughts this is a medical emergency. If someone has situational depression they may need support to help fix the situation or to cope with it if it's not fixable. If someone has a depression that doesn't appear to have a cause there's a variety of things that people try. These don't work for everyone. Some of them have worse evidence bases. 1) Lifestyle changes. These include sleep hygiene (good evidence), exercise (not great evidence but there is sign of some benefit), food (not great evidence), and cutting down on alcohol (good evidence). MH professionals have a concept called "activation". As depression takes hold the person loses track of their routines and habits, and they enter a cycle of not doing anything because they're in a low mood, and being in a low mood because they don't do anything. Activation is part of treatment and it involves gradually building up your routines as treatment progresses. 2) Meds. Meds can be split into roughly 5 groups: Tricyclics (avoid if you can), MAOIs (only used for severe treatment resistant depression), SSRIs/SSNIs/NASAs/etc (reasonable evidence base, some people need to cycle through a few to find one that works, some people have unpleasant discontinuation effects), supplements (St John's Wort etc. I'd avoid these unless you're sure the product is good quality, but if you're taking something it's probably better to take real meds), and then things like ketamine which is new and so will be difficult to get for a while. (It's probably useful, it's probably not the miracle drug they claim). 3) Talking therapy. The one with the best evidence base is cognitive behaviour therapy. This is a time-limited therapy with a maximum of 21 weeks, but you can do less if you need less. It's talking about your emotions and thoughts today. It doesn't go into your past. This means it's less suitable for people with trauma in their history. When we look at effectiveness, meds are effective for about 60% of the people who try them. CBT is effective for about 60% of the people who try it (although that figure is lower because it's mostly based on the English implementation of CBT which can be only 6 weeks over the telephone instead of up to 21 weeks face to face). Talking to a professional is a good idea. Psychiatrists usually do diagnosis and medication, although some do talking therapy too. Psychologists usually do either diagnosis or formulation, and will offer a range of talking therapies, and sometimes a bit of a mix to suit. It would be good if your friend had a clear ideas about what they wanted to focus on in treatment and what their goals are, although obviously that can be tricky if their thinking is muddled. You mentioned drug use. Some people do report remarkable, life-changing, experiences after using psychedelics. But it's important to remember that a few people have bad experiences, and some people are harmed. In general (at least in the UK) people who take psychedelics have a good reputation for harm minimisation and responsible drug use, so if you can find a forum you're likely to get good advice and advice that you can check against other sources. In England this is the guidance for treatment that patients can expect: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90 https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90 Hope things pick up a bit for your friend. [1] A bit more about suicide. Asking people is safe; get people to make a safety plan; get them to seek help. The Zero Suicide Alliance have a 20-30 minute free training video here: https://www.zerosuicidealliance.com/training https://www.zerosuicidealliance.com/training https://themighty.com/2020/08/study-safe-to-ask-about-suicide/ https://themighty.com/2020/08/study-safe-to-ask-about-suicid... https://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/ https://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/
seventhtiger 6y ago
From my research into the topic I've labeled microdosing under "cool homeopathy".
L_226 6y ago
Obligatory video of Stamets on the Joe Rogan Experience (it's not terrible!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6Ym719urg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6Ym719urg

231 points by dnetesn 6y ago

I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months during quarantine as a bit of a cognitive experiment. I feel a lot more switched on and focused in my work. Reading these posts I wonder what other diseases such as Parkinson's, seizures, PTSD, depression, anxiety have yet to be studied and require more research. Can anyone speak to this? Anything else I should add to my stack?

trabant00 6y ago
> I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months [...] I didn't get COVID and I feel a lot more switched on and focused You lost your causation vs correlation sense though :)
- agumonkey 6y ago
  he's now fully quantum
- qz2 6y ago
  Nailed it. A lot of the "I did this and it had great effects" are compounded with "I did this and it ruined my life" and a bit of "I did this and it ruined my life and everyone around me". I suspect the human mind is tailored to promote the first outcome and stick it's fingers in its metaphorical ears about the last two outcomes. Turns out we need actual formal studies and even those aren't necessarily conclusive so it's best to err on the side of caution.
  - mimac 6y ago
    Good evidence that big doses work: https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/0269881120919957 https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/abs/10.1177/026988112091995...
    - qz2 6y ago
      I’m sure that is caveated on some people and for some conditions. I’d expect a better standard and more research to be defined here or we’ll end up with another paroxetine mess on our hands. I lost a decade of my life to cleaning up after that mess and that was just a family member’s encounter with it. What is factual is that things are invariably more complicated than they look when it comes to human minds. Look up “study 329” for an example of complexity.
  - dmurray 6y ago
    > I suspect the human mind is tailored to promote the first outcome and stick it's fingers in its metaphorical ears about the last two outcomes. It's more complicated than that. Plenty of people hear the bad outcomes and stick their fingers in their ears about the good ones. The subject of recreational drug use is a particularly good one for eliciting this behaviour, both for and against. The interesting questions are how people in the same society get primed for one reaction over the other, and how we can individually avoid this behaviour and approach controversial topics with an open mind.
    - adamsea 6y ago
      And (although I think you kinda said this), different people may respond in different ways.
- PakG1 6y ago
  This sounds too much like Billions season 5 episode 7. Uncanny. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJNljm1pVs https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XtJNljm1pVs
  - okamiueru 6y ago
    Is that clip indicative of the quality of the show?
    - drewmate 6y ago
      Currently, yes. The first season was _much_ better, and there has been a decline (at first steep, then gradual and consistent) with each season since then. This was the last episode they aired due to COVID-related production shutdown. They're supposed to finish this season and do another, but I wonder if the show might just shut down quietly at this point.
      - toby 6y ago
        It was initially based on a true story described in the book "Black Edge". It just kept getting more and more outlandish once they ran out of source material.
- f69281c 6y ago
  The self-reported positive effects hallucinogens are awful. They alter your perception so your perception of perceived benefits is unreliable, and anyone who's not tripping can tell you that. I mean, with full doses the reported benefits are things like connecting with the thread of the universe and speaking across planes to dimensional beings that inform you that we're all one, but the word fractal is jammed in there somewhere. I'm not saying these people can't have fun, but pulling THAT experience back to just reduced levels of the drug is probably still going to give terrible accuracy for self reported results. Microdosing reminds me of those people who left high school parties saying it was fine because they drive better drunk, or that they took some coke to balance it out.
  - teataster 6y ago
    Microdosing implies non psychoactive dose. It would be more like people who left after drinking one beer because they were not under the influence. Furthermore, how can you be certain that you sober perception is more accurate than the altered one? How can you be certain that the effects of microdosing are even comparable to full doses? I am not making claims either way, just asking.
  - loves_mangoes 6y ago
    Here's my personal anecdote: I took acid once (200ug sublingual), and realized that I need to clean my apartment and brush my teeth more often. I'm not a very spiritual person, and I don't have a strong desire to 'connect with the thread of the universe'. But I'm very curious and happy to try things, if I can convince myself they're reasonably safe. That was a few weeks ago, and I'm happy to report that my floor is noticeably cleaner and my teeth cared for =) I could try to claim other less measurable and subjective benefits, but that wouldn't be very honest with myself after only a couple weeks, and I doubt you'd believe me.
  - travisjungroth 6y ago
    If someone is impaired to drive they are by definition not microdosing. The equivalent to alcohol would be like a quarter of a beer.
dmos62 6y ago
Nice to have such a steady access to psilocybin. Why not LSD, by the way? > I've been microdosing psilocybin daily for the past six months, [...] I didn't get COVID. Made me laugh.
- emteycz 6y ago
  Isn't the tolerance to LSD built way too fast for daily (micro)usage over half a year?
  - teataster 6y ago
    Yes, same as psilocybin. When you microdose you are not supposed to get psychedelic effects. The supposed benefits come from prolonged presence of the molecule in the body. Similar how antidepressants work, the point is not to take one tablet once.
    - WalterSear 6y ago
      The effects of microdosing begin on consumption and end on discontinuation. They do not build up and fade slowly. Tolerance and breaks are frequently discussed. So, it's not about the effect of a prolonged presence.
  - quantumwoke 6y ago
    Not sure what other people are using, but I've worked up to about 64mcg/day.
    - NeutronStar 6y ago
      100mcg is usually a full dose. Usually micrososing is 1/10th of a typical full dose so 10mcg. Your tolerance is already quite high if you're at 64mcg/day and not actively feeling any tripping.
- dkersten 6y ago
  > Why not LSD At least this [1] suggests that LSD microdosing doesn’t do anything, while there have been a few studies that suggested psilocybin micrososing does. Dunno how strong the evidence is in either direction but that would make me more inclined to start with psilocybin if I were to experiment myself. [1] https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing#conclusion https://www.gwern.net/LSD-microdosing#conclusion
BrianOnHN 6y ago
What size micro dose? Personally, I've concluded I cannot be productive with even as little as 100-200mg of cubes.
- Out_of_Characte 6y ago
  mcg, I presume. But 200mcg is a really high dose. 10-20 would be a microdose for most. I hope you test your stuff and have the right potency because your comment doesn't sound right.
  - travisjungroth 6y ago
    They’re talking about milligrams of cubensis mushrooms (cubes) not micrograms of LSD.
    - Out_of_Characte 6y ago
      My bad, tracked the wrong parent comment by mistake. I thought he was talking about consumable microdose lsd cubes. Makes alot more sense now.
- WalterSear 6y ago
  5-7 mg. 10mg verges on a perceptual dose for me.
phkahler 6y ago
>> I feel a lot more switched on and focused in my work. Quarantine alone can do that for some people. Shutting out the world is a requirement to focus on deep work. Same reason Joel Spolsky says software engineers need offices with doors. Not saying you're wrong, just that you cant separate out this obvious factor in your experiment.
chrisweekly 6y ago
Lots of questions; top 2: How did you get started? Is there a reasonably safe (both medically and legally) way to source it?
- cakemuncher 6y ago
  1. Going into this, you need to research a ton. 2. Know someone that sells it. Or look for a field for them and go hunting. Or grow them, spores are legal and you can buy everything you need online.
- WalterSear 6y ago
  There are many places online that will ship spores where it is legal to have spores. Many places discussing it, too.
dezmou 6y ago
I started microdosing psilocybin since 3 years, sometime every day, sometime once every 1 or 2 weeks. When I take it the morning, I am very focused on my work, but also I am less stressed and anxious. I had a Tinder period with lot of date and psilocybin really help to build confident with women.
- throw_this_one 6y ago
  Do you take the psilocybin specifically before the date? Or just in general, the microdosing has made you better with women
  - dezmou 6y ago
    Every morning of the day of the date, but surely in general too, I feel like upgraded in every field possible with a long terme cure.
    - throw_this_one 6y ago
      Yeah I tried for the first time. Was roughly 300mg? For the first hour I was a bit off, but then it cleared and I felt very straightforward and open emotionally all day. Could definitely see it being useful for a date. What's your dose, is it extract or raw material?
      - dezmou 6y ago
        It is raw dried B+ magic mushroom, I mix it to obtain a powder. I don't know the exact gram of dose, it is about between 0.5 and 1.0 cubic centimeter of powder
- andai 6y ago
  Interesting, when I was microdosing LSD I was much more social: less social anxiety, more outgoing and more friendly. (A nicer person, as far as I can tell!) Also I was able to consistently keep an early bedtime for the first time in my life. The most interesting effect for me was that it became impossible to procrastinate. (I normally spend 99% of my time procrastinating.) I would go on YouTube or Reddit but the whole time I was just consciously aware that I was trying to distract myself from something... so in the end it was easier to just go ahead and do the damn thing to get it off my mind. Very productive time for me.
say_it_as_it_is 6y ago
Lion's Mane mushroom is being marketed by Stamets

Gys 6y ago

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psilocybin: 'a naturally occurring psychedelic prodrug compound produced by more than 200 species of fungus'

browsergrip 6y ago

Paul stamets is also the name of the Astromycologist on Star trek discovery.

choeger 6y ago
What an absolute random coincidence! What are the chances? ;)
narag 6y ago
Obviously. The ship has an experimental drive based on mushrooms.
- bdcravens 6y ago
  He even consulted with the writers on that technology. https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets_(mycologist) https://memory-alpha.fandom.com/wiki/Paul_Stamets_(mycologis...
TeMPOraL 6y ago
Yeah, I have a feeling that's why I see his name so often on HN these days. The show propelled him to wider recognition.
- bluntfang 6y ago
  Joe Rogan did more for his general populace celebrity status than Star Trek
- throwaway316943 6y ago
  Lol, sure, must be from Star Trek.
carapace 6y ago
One of the weirdest things about that show. Who does that? Did they ask him for permission first?
- 6y ago

trabant00 6y ago

I'm sorry but this is just hippy nonsense. It's not the lack of mental integration into nature that is stopping us from taking care of the enverionment. And you don't need to trip on mushrooms to see the filth all arround us. The real issues include: not being able to stop production and consumption for obvious reasons. Energy production and distribution logistics. Understanding natural ecosystems and setting priorities on how to protect them. Sharing the world with neighbours that can outcompete you because they don't pay the high costs of clean industry. And many more real hard problems, not just a state of mind. tldr: this article is the equivalent of "why can't we all just get along" plan for world peace.

quantumwoke 6y ago
I find it best to argue in good faith when coming to these kinds of low-data conversations. There are obviously many such factors involved in our integration with the environment. Why couldn't it be psilocybin (or other nootropic compound) that pushes us towards a more sustainable future with fewer mental health/chronic pain issues? This is a classic HN takedown of an otherwise interesting post.
- Ygg2 6y ago
  It's still the argument based on consumption. Let's consume X, surely that will sort our issue of emitting too much CO2. Edit: not to mention. Our environmental problems aren't consumption or conscience, or even technology based, but lack of political will.
  - defterGoose 6y ago
    Saying the problem isn't related to consumption is just willfully obtuse and wrong.
    - Ygg2 6y ago
      This magical mushroom needs to be distributed to people, right? And they need to be grown, right? Unless they are grown in Narnia and transported via teleportation, they are going to cause CO2 emissions, for dubious gains. His argument was - it made me believe in unity with nature, ergo it will work on everyone. Also here is an unverified study.

k33n 6y ago

I thought these types “believed in science” yet here we are just casually stating that if we all do shrooms, the environment will be “saved”. Can’t make this stuff up.

phkahler 6y ago
It's just like all the practical uses of hemp we used to hear about.
- atom-morgan 6y ago
  Aren't governments getting in the way of those uses?
- dkdbejwi383 6y ago
  Well I'll tell you, I bought 500m of hemp rope because I was told it could use used to replace copper cabling for green electricity, ye knar?. It didn't work like, but I have now got the most environmentally friendly footstool in all of Middlesbrough.

jatgoodwin 6y ago

The problem with psychedelics is they only make you "more" of what you are. It's the spotlighting effect multiplied. Especially when "bad" people take them they just become even more of an asshole, or dare I say when stupid people take them they just revel in the intoxication. You just have to read the old research literature on LSD like stuff from James Fadiman to understand that these are extremely dangerous substances that can cause trauma and other serious psychological problems if not used extremely specifically and carefully. If a subject is carefully prepared and trained in the weeks leading up to a trip, then carefully guided through by a psychologist in a 3 day process, then psychedelics have been proven in studies to be used to solve problems effectively. This isn't something you can do on your own. It's this bizarre problem of we've been lied to for so long about the dangers of these drugs that the actual dangers get buried and nobody talks about the very real possibility of having PTSD flashbacks for the rest of your life to a moment when you were tripping then you start tripping again and have to run for your serquel.

sev 6y ago
The only idea conveyed in your message that has any factual basis is that psychedelics should be taken with a lot of care, preparation, and consideration, including pre existing susceptibilities. Everything else you said builds on top of this idea as if they are also fact based, but they are not. Let’s not make the social acceptance of psychedelics even harder than they already have been made to be.
- mistermann 6y ago
  You have noticed something very interesting about the nature of human consciousness and the way it conceptualizes the world, and the events, ideas, people, etc within it. Other examples of this phenomenon can be observed in this thread, and all other threads on any topic. I propose that this phenomenon can be productively explored and ~understood with the usage of psychedelics if one goes in with this specific intention.
humbleMouse 6y ago
“This isn’t something you can do on your own” I’m gonna have to push back here. Go rent a cabin in the woods and eat some mushrooms and I guarantee you can work thru issues on your own.

spaetzleesser 6y ago

I am all for legalization but this stuffs sound exactly like what was written a few years about Marijuana. There were tons of articles about how Marijuana use will do things like saving the environment, saves the rain forest, cure cancer and so on. For some reason like to overshoot with this predictions of the benefits of these things. In the end our capitalist world will probably prevail and whatever expansion of consciousness happens will be at the surface level.

defterGoose 6y ago
I think it's much more likely that "our capitalist world" will drive us off a cliff rather than into a bright future. We have absolutely zero precedent for the changes we are facing. However, I do believe individuals still have agency in the world. We have to try at least, I guess.

ArtWomb 6y ago

Related: Berkeley launches new center for psychedelic research https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/09/14/uc-berkeley-launches-new-center-for-psychedelic-science-and-education/ https://news.berkeley.edu/2020/09/14/uc-berkeley-launches-ne...

toss1 6y ago

I received some very helpful wisdom on this topic, many years ago in my early teens, from a random guy I met on a beach. He said "if you are interested in tripping, you'll almost surely do it. Just be sure to never feel pressured to do it at any one time - it'll always be there. When you do, just be sure you feel comfortable, not tense, and are in a good situation, among friends, and so on. ", basically how to avoid bad trips. Only did a handful of times, but every time was totally worth it, mind expanding, and enjoyable. Definite thanks in no small part to the wisdom from a random stranger.

travisjungroth 6y ago
I think that because psychedelics are illegal part of why people do them is to satisfy their need for danger. This is the person who thinks “why the hell not!” when taking acid for the first time from a stranger at a party. They’re in this rule breaking mindset already, so stuff like “set and setting” is just one more rule to break. It’s like if scuba diving was illegal. I’m doubtful that people would do it as carefully. The advice you got from that stranger seems like a good antidote to that mindset. “It’ll always be there.” That sentence alone seems to take the edge off. You don’t have to take it just because you were offered. It’ll come by again.
- toss1 6y ago
  yup, peer pressure is probably the worst reason to do anything!

TedDoesntTalk 6y ago

> Evolution is the evolution of intelligence Where can I read more of this idea?

carapace 6y ago
Gregory Bateson, "Steps to an Ecology of Mind" and "Mind and Nature: A Necessary Unity".

michalf6 6y ago

It can't save the environment from cultures that will bulldoze over incapacitated and non-competing westerners who buy this hippie nonsense. Is there any good data on the effects of taking psychedelics on aggression / ambition / aggreableness / conscientiousness? The "becoming one with Nature" theme seems to be pretty common among enthusiasts, although I personally didn't notice a lasting effect after eating shrooms. I'm curious if there's a cause-effect relationship or it's just bias in people who gravitate to this.

animal_spirits 6y ago
I was curious and decided to look it up. Turns out there is a peer reviewed Journal of Psychopharmacology that has many published papers on topics that you mention. https://journals.sagepub.com/home/jop https://journals.sagepub.com/home/jop
currymj 6y ago
Stamets himself is quite a successful entrepreneur, as one data point. He funds much of his research out of the proceeds from his business selling mushroom-based products.
- WalterSear 6y ago
  His mushroom-based products are well known for containing only trace amounts of the active ingredients. They are a scam and beg question of Stamet's claims and motives.
  - colordrops 6y ago
    Could you provide some evidence of this?
    - WalterSear 6y ago
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B9Rqr_3EcY&feature=youtu.be&t=379 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3B9Rqr_3EcY&feature=youtu.be... https://www.reddit.com/r/MushroomSupplements/comments/9o26my/measurement_of_%CE%B2glucan_in_mushrooms_and_mycelial/ https://www.reddit.com/r/MushroomSupplements/comments/9o26my...

currymj 6y ago

i don't like this argument at all. protecting the environment is an immense responsibility that we all share, so the argument veers close to implying that choosing not to take psychedelic drugs is morally wrong -- willfully choosing to inhibit "evolutionary intelligence". i've noticed that in the last couple years, psychedelic advocates have shifted from advocating for legalization and increased research (very good in my view), to being very defensive about possible dangers, to applying social pressure against people who don't want to take psychedelics. of course this only happens right now in certain limited social circles, but it is spreading. not a good trend in my view, and not very reassuring if psychedelics are supposed to help people be more enlightened and open-minded.

mistermann 6y ago
I would place myself solidly into this category of people, although I try to avoid the negative behaviors that you validly point out. In response, I ask: how confident are you in your (as I see it) perception/estimation that psychedelics do not (or, are highly unlikely to) have some genuine (in fact) quality that could bring immense value to the world? If we were to find a way to use them in the proper ways (which would include close integration with scientific study of the ongoing process), does it seem reasonably plausible to you that some sort of a significant achievement could be achieved?
- currymj 6y ago
  i think if they really work well as part of treatment for PTSD and other aftereffects of trauma, and perhaps other mental illnesses, that would be of profound value for humanity. as far as people taking them in general: from looking at people who take psychedelics, it doesn't seem to me that they're any more or less enlightened or emotionally mature than people who don't. whatever the subjective experience, it seems like all the flaws and foibles of humanity are still there just as much. it does seem like it teaches people a particular outlook or way of relating to the world -- but I don't think it's one that is superior or inferior to other perspectives. Probably society needs people who relate to life in many different ways. I would worry about living in a society where it is the norm for everyone to take psychedelic drugs multiple times per year. I think things would get pretty weird.

grimzucchini 6y ago

Terence McKenna would be agree.

dghughes 6y ago

I saw this on Twitter today (mushroom related) by Dr. Inés Dawson. Why do mushrooms always have double-barrelled surnames? They're hyphae-nated!

carapace 6y ago

See also "What Bodies Think About: Bioelectric Computation Outside the Nervous System" (youtube.com) https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18736698 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18736698

jp0d 6y ago

I got a call from a friend today, who is dealing with depression. He has ready many such articles and has been microdosing on psilocybin mushrooms. He wanted my help to be with him as a sober person when he goes through the experience. I had to say no. I've two simple reasons. 1. Mushrooms are illegal in Australia. I don't want him or I to be part of any illegal activity. 2. Even though he argued that the big pharma wouldn't let this happen etc, modern medicine has saved so many lives that we at least should try to understand it better. I requested him to see a psychiatrist and go through therapy. Talk to the to professional and seek natural alternatives to prescription medicine, if available. I could be wrong in my opinion. As a student of statistics, I'd love to read some study results on the effect of psilocybin before believing this.

DanBC 6y ago
I'm not a healthcare professional. Depression is an umbrella term and it covers a wide range of different things, and a wide range of severity. At its most severe depression is a fatal illness. It is safe[1] to ask people if they've considered suicide. If people have suicidal thoughts this is a medical emergency. If someone has situational depression they may need support to help fix the situation or to cope with it if it's not fixable. If someone has a depression that doesn't appear to have a cause there's a variety of things that people try. These don't work for everyone. Some of them have worse evidence bases. 1) Lifestyle changes. These include sleep hygiene (good evidence), exercise (not great evidence but there is sign of some benefit), food (not great evidence), and cutting down on alcohol (good evidence). MH professionals have a concept called "activation". As depression takes hold the person loses track of their routines and habits, and they enter a cycle of not doing anything because they're in a low mood, and being in a low mood because they don't do anything. Activation is part of treatment and it involves gradually building up your routines as treatment progresses. 2) Meds. Meds can be split into roughly 5 groups: Tricyclics (avoid if you can), MAOIs (only used for severe treatment resistant depression), SSRIs/SSNIs/NASAs/etc (reasonable evidence base, some people need to cycle through a few to find one that works, some people have unpleasant discontinuation effects), supplements (St John's Wort etc. I'd avoid these unless you're sure the product is good quality, but if you're taking something it's probably better to take real meds), and then things like ketamine which is new and so will be difficult to get for a while. (It's probably useful, it's probably not the miracle drug they claim). 3) Talking therapy. The one with the best evidence base is cognitive behaviour therapy. This is a time-limited therapy with a maximum of 21 weeks, but you can do less if you need less. It's talking about your emotions and thoughts today. It doesn't go into your past. This means it's less suitable for people with trauma in their history. When we look at effectiveness, meds are effective for about 60% of the people who try them. CBT is effective for about 60% of the people who try it (although that figure is lower because it's mostly based on the English implementation of CBT which can be only 6 weeks over the telephone instead of up to 21 weeks face to face). Talking to a professional is a good idea. Psychiatrists usually do diagnosis and medication, although some do talking therapy too. Psychologists usually do either diagnosis or formulation, and will offer a range of talking therapies, and sometimes a bit of a mix to suit. It would be good if your friend had a clear ideas about what they wanted to focus on in treatment and what their goals are, although obviously that can be tricky if their thinking is muddled. You mentioned drug use. Some people do report remarkable, life-changing, experiences after using psychedelics. But it's important to remember that a few people have bad experiences, and some people are harmed. In general (at least in the UK) people who take psychedelics have a good reputation for harm minimisation and responsible drug use, so if you can find a forum you're likely to get good advice and advice that you can check against other sources. In England this is the guidance for treatment that patients can expect: https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90 https://www.nice.org.uk/guidance/cg90 Hope things pick up a bit for your friend. [1] A bit more about suicide. Asking people is safe; get people to make a safety plan; get them to seek help. The Zero Suicide Alliance have a 20-30 minute free training video here: https://www.zerosuicidealliance.com/training https://www.zerosuicidealliance.com/training https://themighty.com/2020/08/study-safe-to-ask-about-suicide/ https://themighty.com/2020/08/study-safe-to-ask-about-suicid... https://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/ https://www.prevent-suicide.org.uk/

seventhtiger 6y ago

From my research into the topic I've labeled microdosing under "cool homeopathy".

L_226 6y ago

Obligatory video of Stamets on the Joe Rogan Experience (it's not terrible!): https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6Ym719urg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xJ6Ym719urg